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Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 18:28:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')n Australia we effectively have this- if not qualified for any other benefit, no substantial assets, very little cash- special benefit is about $1200 a month with rent assistance single.



Here's it's like $200 and some odd dollars month (single) and one must be applying for disability for payment. This is a Blue State, I'm thinking RED States a single gets ZERO.
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Loki » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 19:35:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drgoodword', '
')Note to Loki:

My apologies in advance if I'm mistaken, but your math seems to assume that everyone is given a set income amount per month.

Yes, that was my assumption, just based on the thread title ("every citizen"). Your explanation of this law would substantially reduce the overall expense, of course.

$2800 is significantly more than I make every month, working the most physically taxing job I've ever had. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason for continuing to work if I got $2800/mo of free money.

Your scheme would help mitigate this, of course, by requiring work. A better idea, I think, than an automatic minimum income, though the devil would be in the details.

We'll be struggling with these questions more and more as the effects of automation on the labor market become progressively worse. Given how automated our economy already is, and how much more automated it's likely to become, I'm not sure that "job retraining" will be of much use. There will simply be fewer and fewer jobs to retrain for.
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Fri 25 Oct 2013, 19:54:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'L')et me guess, your German?

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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 26 Oct 2013, 23:08:52

mechcanisation and ever increasing computing power reduces the need for human labour , therefore we need less human beings

power, from whatever source , is only part of the solution

we are moving increasingly closer to the physical limits of this planet

and our descendents will have to leave this planet if they wish to survive
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Rune » Sat 26 Oct 2013, 23:24:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kiwichick', 'm')echcanisation and ever increasing computing power reduces the need for human labour , therefore we need less human beings

power, from whatever source , is only part of the solution

we are moving increasingly closer to the physical limits of this planet

and our descendents will have to leave this planet if they wish to survive


I would imagine there would be some sort of deliberate depopulation before anything out of our control occurs. The questions of If, when and how remains.

I keep wondering if we will hear any serious rumblings about a global currency of some sort - where all this massive international debt is used to justify it.

That woud be a harbinger of other really frightening events the could occur. The human race is viscious to itself. History bears that out. There is no reason to believe that we have somehow outgrown it.

We would never see people leaving the planet in droves. That's science fiction. We COULD see intentional depopulation though. That, at least, is possible. Who knows what viral armageddon's can be cooked up in the labs - or how selective they can be designed.

Civilization and its technology will march on. Its just that a whole bunch of ordinary people won't - once they become totally useless.
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 26 Oct 2013, 23:57:22

world bank figures 2005 - 2010 listing top 20 countries by GDP/capita

1 Luxembourg
2 Qatar
3 Macau
4 Singapore
5 Norway
6 Kuwait
7 Brunei
8 U.A.E.
9 U.S.A
10 Hong Kong
11Switzerland
12Netherlands
13 Ireland
14Denmark
15Austria
16Canada
17Sweden
18 Australia
19 Belgium
20 Germany

Qatar, Kuwait, Brunei, U.A.E. and Ireland had average annual population growth
of 2.24 %

the other 15 averaged 0.59%

all of the top 8 countries had populations of less than 10 million

only two countries had populations of over 50 million; USA and Germany

USA population growth averaged 0.97 %/ year
Germany averaged negative 0.07 % / year

of course the ranking jumps around ; the IMF in 2012 puts Australia at #5 and Japan at #12 for example, but the only countries with population growth over 2% annually and high GDP/ capita are also significant fossil fuel producers ; mainly oil
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Synapsid » Sun 27 Oct 2013, 00:39:19

Oneaboveall:

Um...Hermes not Mercury?

(signed) Mythologynuisance
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 27 Oct 2013, 06:39:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kiwichick', 'w')orld bank figures 2005 - 2010 listing top 20 countries by GDP/capita

1 Luxembourg
2 Qatar
3 Macau
4 Singapore
5 Norway
6 Kuwait
7 Brunei
8 U.A.E.
9 U.S.A
10 Hong Kong
11Switzerland
12Netherlands
13 Ireland
14Denmark
15Austria
16Canada
17Sweden
18 Australia
19 Belgium
20 Germany

Qatar, Kuwait, Brunei, U.A.E. and Ireland had average annual population growth
of 2.24 %

the other 15 averaged 0.59%

all of the top 8 countries had populations of less than 10 million

only two countries had populations of over 50 million; USA and Germany

USA population growth averaged 0.97 %/ year
Germany averaged negative 0.07 % / year

of course the ranking jumps around ; the IMF in 2012 puts Australia at #5 and Japan at #12 for example, but the only countries with population growth over 2% annually and high GDP/ capita are also significant fossil fuel producers ; mainly oil

We really need some more up to date figures than those, The "on paper" GDP/per capita include corporate finance that is parked in some of those countries for tax purposes. Ireland for example during the Celtic Tiger years was very rich on paper, but it was all borrowed money and was left very exposed when the tide went out in 2008.
Much of Ireland’s population growth was due to the children of emigrants going "home" as well as an influx from Eastern European countries when those countries joined the EU, there is very little oil produced in Ireland
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Sun 27 Oct 2013, 15:24:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Synapsid', 'O')neaboveall:

Um...Hermes not Mercury?

(signed) Mythologynuisance

Wow. You're the first person to comment on my signature quote. I actually got this from a comment on another board, but you are correct.
When the banksters want something, our policymakers move with the speed of Mercury and the determination of Ares. It’s only when the rest of us need something that there is paralysis.

How free are we today with the dominance of globalist capital and militarized security apparatus?
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Re: Switzerland Mulls Giving Every Citizen $2,800 Per Month

Unread postby Rune » Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:06:39

The New York Times

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he case from the right is one of expediency and efficacy. Let’s say that Congress decided to provide a basic income through the tax code or by expanding the Social Security program. Such a system might work better and be fairer than the current patchwork of programs, including welfare, food stamps and housing vouchers. A single father with two jobs and two children would no longer have to worry about the hassle of visiting a bunch of offices to receive benefits. And giving him a single lump sum might help him use his federal dollars better. Housing vouchers have to be spent on housing, food stamps on food. Those dollars would be more valuable — both to the recipient and the economy at large — if they were fungible.

Even better, conservatives think, such a program could significantly reduce the size of our federal bureaucracy. It could take the place of welfare, food stamps, housing vouchers and hundreds of other programs, all at once: Hello, basic income; goodbye, H.U.D. Charles Murray of the conservative American Enterprise Institute has proposed a minimum income for just that reason — feed the poor, and starve the beast. “Give the money to the people,” Murray wrote in his book “In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State.” He suggested guaranteeing $10,000 a year to anyone meeting the following conditions: be American, be over 21, stay out of jail and — as he once quipped — “have a pulse.”

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he left is more concerned with the power of a minimum or basic income as an anti-poverty and pro-mobility tool. There happens to be some hard evidence to bolster the policy’s case. In the mid-1970s, the tiny Canadian town of Dauphin ( the “garden capital of Manitoba” ) acted as guinea pig for a grand experiment in social policy called “Mincome.” For a short period of time, all the residents of the town received a guaranteed minimum income. About 1,000 poor families got monthly checks to supplement their earnings.

Evelyn Forget, a health economist at the University of Manitoba, has done some of the best research on the results. Some of her findings were obvious: Poverty disappeared. But others were more surprising: High-school completion rates went up; hospitalization rates went down. “If you have a social program like this, community values themselves start to change,” Forget said.

There are strong arguments against minimum or basic incomes, too. Cost is one. Creating a massive disincentive to work is another. But some experts said the effect might be smaller than you would think. A basic income might be enough to live on, but not enough to live very well on. Such a program would be designed to end poverty without creating a nation of layabouts. The Mincome experiment offers some backup for that argument, too.“For a lot of economists, the issue was that you would disincentivize work,” said Wayne Simpson, a Canadian economist who has studied Mincome. “The evidence showed that it was not nearly as bad as some of the literature had suggested.”

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here’s a deeper, scarier reason that arguments for guaranteed incomes have resurfaced of late. Wages are stagnant, unemployment is high and tens of millions of families are struggling in Europe and here at home. Despite record corporate earnings and skyrocketing fortunes for the college-educated and already well-off, the job market is simply not rewarding many fully employed workers with a decent way of life. Millions of households have had no real increase in earnings since the late 1980s. Consider the current debate over fast-food workers’ wages.

The advocacy group Low Pay Is Not OK posted a phone call, recorded by a 10-year McDonald’s veteran, Nancy Salgado, when she contacted the company’s “McResource” help line. The operator told Salgado that she could qualify for food stamps and home heating assistance, while also suggesting some area food banks — impressively, she knew to recommend these services without even asking about Salgado’s wage ($8.25 an hour), though she was aware Salgado worked full time. The company earned $5.5 billion in net profits last year, and appears to take for granted that many of its employees will be on the dole.

Absurd as a minimum income might seem to bootstrapping Americans, one already exists in a way — McDonald’s knows it. If our economy is no longer able to improve the lives of the working poor and low-income families, why not tweak our policies to do what we’re already doing, but better — more harmoniously? It’s hardly uplifting news, but minimum incomes just might be stimmig for the United States too.


How long is it going to be before McDonald's starts using robots? You think its impossible for the company to do it now? I don't. It's just economics. The robots that would be required would be too expensive, currently, to use profitably.

But, they're coming... the robots are coming... and their price is coming down too.
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