[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FireJack', 'I') read naked ape to superspecies and am now reading how societies choose to fail or succed. I expect to see a great reduction in the standard of living in the near future followed by a die-off then a slow transition to a sustainble society. Of course since all the cheap sources of energy will have been used up (oil, natural gas) the society will have no real way of really advancing and will probably die out in the next ice age or major environmental change (astroid impact, super volcano, etc). I'm pretty sure this was our one chance to leave the confines of earth but as it stands now all traces that we existed, except for a couple of satilites, will vanish with the sun. Ow well.

[gego]

Your fourth post is quite revealing, and additional evidence of you.

Again, get the to a shrink. Your persuit of a degree is hardly going to save the world or satisfy your megalomania.

[FireJack]

I have no reason to think elijah is a meglomaniac or insane from reading those posts gego, mabey your basing you rants of other stuff elijah has typed but your just coming off as a troll trying to turn this thread into a flame war.

Hopefully elijah is wise and will ignore your posts.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', ' ')But there are communities out there that are talking about the right thing and even doing it. Alot of these permaculture communities and stuff. The youth are still the hope, if we educate them right.

[gg3]

"What we want, and what we need
have been confused, been confused!"
-REM

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(Far be it for me to lead off a posting with a rock lyrics quote, but that one really fits.)

---

Gego, your ad-hominems against ElijahJones are evidence of a lack of debating skills, and they make you look like a fool. Good luck.

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Re. can't meet world's needs: 1/3 of humans don't have access to clean drinking water. This means the world is 1/3 beyond present carrying capacity. With other resources factored in, we are more than 2/3 over; and a sustainable global population is about 2 billion. There is no way to avoid this issue, though I won't digress the topic further over it.

Re. capital: Another ingredient is human capital, the value of the knowledge and skills of a company's workforce. (Or a country's or the world's workforce.)

Strictly speaking, conventional "capitalism" is only financial capitalism. It would be most interesting to come up with a more inclusive model that includes natural capital and human capital, market mechanisms, etc. (To be fair there is also a case to be made for some socialistic mechanisms, based on the fact that growth will not be possible after a point; this is another debate for another day also...)

Re. "natural beauty" under strong sustainability: Beauty is a luxury after food, shelter, etc. have been dealt with. It should be considered a *reward* for achieving basic sustainability goals, notably population reduction. In point of fact, it *is* a reward for lower population densities.

Re. growth "we think of as good..." I think of pizza as good also, but after two slices I'm satisfied, three slices I'm full, and the fourth is a chore, the fifth is probably unpleasant, and the sixth probably leads to throwing up all of them. This is the issue of the "enough" signal. When is enough enough?

Infinite growth on a finite planet is simply impossible: an infinity cannot be a subset of an integer, and that statement is is absolute and irrefutable.

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too much to reply to at the moment; I'll be back later....

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'R')e. "natural beauty" under strong sustainability: Beauty is a luxury after food, shelter, etc. have been dealt with. It should be considered a *reward* for achieving basic sustainability goals, notably population reduction. In point of fact, it *is* a reward for lower population densities.

[Revi]

I watched Al Gore's movie and re-read Limits to Growth. I got to thinking about how we can make sustainability happen. Is there a simple way that can be sold to people that might move us towards the goal of more sustainablility? Check out my website below for the things we've done in our household to cut energy use. What things are you up to? How can we package what we're up to as a movement, or a plan that people can follow and end up saving money, energy and maybe themselves and their families?

[WildRose]

Hi, Revi. I've been thinking a lot about sustainability issues also. I don't have many ideas about saving energy, i.e. ways to modify homes to save energy. But what I have been thinking about is getting people to live locally more, to reduce the amount of driving they do. In the city I live in, so many people drive clear across town to go to work, to shop, to take their kids to multiple after-school/weekend sports, music lessons, you name it.

So I'm thinking that if more people found work closer to where they live, that would help. If communities held soft ball games/skating/pot luck suppers/dances and the people in the community began to look forward to these outings on Saturday nights, instead of driving downtown to a theater or across town to a restaurant, that would help. If people in a community could somehow share shopping trips for groceries, or set up a community schedule for helping seniors shop and get their medications, maybe that would be a good idea. Communities could also have a trading center for services, so that members of the community could get their lawn mower repaired or their hair cut without going too far. Kids could utilize their local swimming pools more, and maybe have safe bike trails to ride on so they could stay in their own community for fun.

These are some of my ideas, off the top of my head. How do you sell them? I don't know. Perhaps through community hall/school meetings, seminars. My guess is that a lot of people have not yet been thinking about why living more locally might be more desirable in the future.

[Ludi]

Practice sustainability in our own lives, and be a good example to our communities. Help people get access to information about how to live sustainably.

[TheTurtle]

Towards the end of May, I parked my car and have been walking/riding the bus to work each day since.

As I sit at the bus stop each morning, I am appalled by the tremendous number of (mostly male) single drivers who whiz by in very large pickup trucks that are clearly being used for very little other than commuting.

I applaud each of you who has made changes in your own life toward sustainability, but I fear we are a very long way from waking up the masses to the need for change in their consumptive lives.

And I further fear that we are pretty much just about out of time.

[Heineken]

The question posed by the forum is absurd. Sustainability can't "happen"---not at current population levels. Deciding to drive a smaller car or use paper bags instead of plastic is sweet and cute but can't change the fact that the population is grossly overshot and can be "sustained" only by further rape of resources, i.e., by borrowing against a future that we can never repay. We can't get out of the box we're in without a major visit from the Grim Reaper. Prepare for a massive dieoff before 2050, IMO.

[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')he question posed by the forum is absurd. Sustainability can't "happen"---not at current population levels. Deciding to drive a smaller car or use paper bags instead of plastic is sweet and cute but can't change the fact that the population is grossly overshot and can be "sustained" only by further rape of resources, i.e., by borrowing against a future that we can never repay. We can't get out of the box we're in without a major visit from the Grim Reaper. Prepare for a massive dieoff before 2050, IMO.

[Heineken]

It comes down to what we mean by "sustainability." If we mean sustaining the current population (which increases by 200,000 mouths daily, net), forget it. Sustainability can happen, but only for a much smaller population in a powered-down, massively reformed world of newly contrite human beings. The only question---and it's a big question---is how we get from here to there.

[NEOPO]

"and the meek shall inherit the earth" Rush - not limbaugh.

Please do not knock what others are doing especially if you are doing nothing.

When all this first hit me I thought "I must set a good example".
I see other good examples and that is good for my moral

Yeah I understand that its better to do nothing sometimes as the alternative is more wasteful then the thing you are trying to offset yet volutarily powering down is not one of these things.

Powerdown is something almost all of us agree must come to pass as there is no alternatives readily available for us to continue down this path.

What else is there to do but powerdown or die?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I')t comes down to what we mean by "sustainability."

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', ' ')Is there a simple way that can be sold to people that might move us towards the goal of more sustainablility?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I')t comes down to what we mean by "sustainability." If we mean sustaining the current population (which increases by 200,000 mouths daily, net), forget it. Sustainability can happen, but only for a much smaller population in a powered-down, massively reformed world of newly contrite human beings. The only question---and it's a big question---is how we get from here to there.

[Heineken]

I understand (as I've understood all along) where you're coming from in your willingness to let the baby in your driveway starve, Jack. I just could not bring myself to do so myself, in here-and-now reality. Anyway . . .

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') understand (as I've understood all along) where you're coming from in your willingness to let the baby in your driveway starve, Jack. I just could not bring myself to do so myself, in here-and-now reality. Anyway . . .

[Revi]

We all know a few things that work. There's solar power (particularly solar hot water), woodstoves, gardens, recycling, carpooling, insulating, bicycling. It all sounds cute, but it really does lessen our impact. And helps us make it through.

I was just driving along on a fairly fast road. I saw what looked like a turtle on the shoulder, heading towards the road. I pulled over and turned around when I found a break in the traffic. By the time I got back to the spot where I saw the turtle it had wandered out on to the road and gotten hit several times and was dead. I picked the mangled shell and meat up and took it to the side of the road. I was so angry that I couldn't save it. It will be eaten by a crow I suppose.

Maybe it is too late for us. Maybe the turtle will be squashed. I don't know. I hope not. There must be something we can do.