[DomusAlbion]

Being debt free is the path we chose. We now have no debt except for the zero percent loan on the tractor and the small amount on our farm. We'll have them both paid off by mid-2014. It feels much better to not worry about all those debts and the loss of wealth in interest payments to the banksters.

We're almost to our goal of a debt free life.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Guest', 'i') have around £4000 of debts (about $7000 I guess) not including my mortgage
since i feel peak oil will 'arrive' early next year I'm not sure whether I should try and pay them off or save the money

on one hand if i lose my job having debts to pay is an added burden
on the other its possible that mass defaults on debts will occur and in the turmoil debts will be 'frozen' as people refuse or are unable to pay them back. Many will blame the economic system for getting them into debt and the world into a mess over oil! So paying back my debts wouldn't make a lot of sense
If I save as much money as I can (I have no savings) then I can use it anyway I need
This assumes the value of money holds.... gold?

If money devalues and we get inflation and high interest rates those debts will never get repaid
I wonder what happened in the depression and germany in the 20's...

My instinct is to pay back those debts, but who to and why?
If the economy goes pear shaped then there will be no profits to be made
If the system encouraged debt then discredits itself entirely (by collapsing due to greed) then doesn't that in effect let us all off our personal debts?

Martin

[Maddog78]

I've been debt free for 6 years now including mortgage.

Many of you may not realise that Vancouver and area RE rebounded strongly from 2008.
Prices of SFH in Van. average a million dollars. That's right. Average!
It's nuts. People buying with 5% down. 5yr. term, 35 yr. amort. mortgages under 3.5%
The party rolls on, although it has slowed a bit this fall. The pumpers say it is a brief rest until it all kicks off again in the spring.

The RE pumpers have been working hard on me. Went in to open a student account with my son and the "helpful" female loan officer encouraged me to get back into debt and buy a rental property.
Not interested in being a landlord right now, thank you very much.

Live within your means I tell people around me. No one listens.
Vancouverites are amazing in their ability to ignore what has happened to their southern neighbours.
"It's different here", is the standard speech.

Until it's not.

[pup55]

You know, about four years ago, Pops and I were having a conversation about this very issue with some of the other posters. perhaps he remembers it....The general gist of it was; If oilmageddon is going to happen, why would you not go out and max out your credit cards, and then just walk away from the bill? Money worthless, goods better than money, etc. etc. At the time, I made the argument that you had a bit of a moral commitment to pay it down if you signed the paper that said "I agree to comply with the cardholder agreement"....

Well come to find out now that per one of the articles the other day on Savinar's website, that 1 in 12 homes of $1M or higher were considered "strategic forclosures" which is, the asshole homeowners that borrowed the money did just that.... bought a nice house and then walked away..... Evidently it is not at all uncommon for these people to not even walk away, just stay in their homes and wait for the eviction to get through the courts......

It's exactly the same thing. You make a promise to pay and then you do not do it.

But it turns out that the relatively wealthy are actually a bit more willing to do that than are the more modest.... go figure....

So based on that I have to say I am having some revisionist thinking on the matter....the moral hazard, so to speak, is breaking down, starting at the upper levels and working downward. That cant be good.

[Pops]

Crap I typed into this thread on and off all morning then the stinkin site crapped, so here is the abbreviated version...

I used to think morality had something to do with it, but I've decided there is no moral obligation to hold up your end of a crooked deal.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'C')rap I typed into this thread on and off all morning then the stinkin site crapped, so here is the abbreviated version...

I used to think morality had something to do with it, but I've decided there is no moral obligation to hold up your end of a crooked deal.

[aldente]

When the point arrives where you realize that you are no longer able to pay off you debt, you have arrived either personally or as a society "where we all are exactly right now", facing the core of the problem of all discussion here, disregarding the subject matter (or forum subject to dial in more specifically).

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'C')rap I typed into this thread on and off all morning then the stinkin site crapped, so here is the abbreviated version...

I used to think morality had something to do with it, but I've decided there is no moral obligation to hold up your end of a crooked deal.

[Pops]

I agree SG, borrowing with no intention to repay is stealing but lending with every intention of taking advantage is stealing too.

My CC company doubled my rate to 15% even though I had been golden and playing by the rules for years - a few months later when I wound up in the hospital and was late on the payment (first time ever) they doubled the rate to 29%. They did it because they could and they needed the money to cover their other bad investments I guess. Is that legal stealing? I think it is.

How about he young couple who bought my house to in CA and who were told that the price was fair by the appraiser and loan broker and by extension Fannie/Freddy or whatever quisinart-quant would be slicing their note up into tiny unrecognizable pieces to be repackaged as AAA bonds. A replacement value appraisal it would have shown it ridiculously overpriced. That house is underwater now by at least half. In reality, they were underwater the day they signed the docs - in a non-peak-oil-world they'd be paying on that house for 10 or 20 years just to get even.

So who legally stole from whom in that case?


I can tell youg, I feel no shame for giving the finger to that CC Co and would like to see everyone do the same and watch all those crooks go teats up. I do feel some guilt for that young couple's current predicament though...


That's my personal opinion by the way, peakoil.com doesn't advocate defaulting on your debts.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') can tell youg, I feel no shame for giving the finger to that CC Co and would like to see everyone do the same and watch all those crooks go teats up. I do feel some guilt for that young couple's current predicament though...


That's my personal opinion by the way, peakoil.com doesn't advocate defaulting on your debts.

[Maddog78]

Who forces people to sign up for those cards?
Who forces people to put more on those cards than they can pay off when the bill comes in at the end of the month?

Cut up your cards.
Don't take loans.

I've had one loan in my life apart from a mortgage.
My first car after I got out of school and I paid it off in 7 months.
Bought every other car, motorcycle, boat, whatever, cash.
If I couldn't pay cash, I didn't buy it. Simple.
Paid off my mortgage in less than 12 years.

Live within your means.
It's an almost unheard of concept nowadays.

[efarmer]

I have worked hard here in the attempt to make people laugh, when I am not on one of my grinding gruesome rant binges. This should not go unrewarded. Ludi provides me with virtual eggs from her chicken coop, but I would suggest that those of you who feel they would like to close the circle of giving, dig deep in their pockets and send me as much money as you find there as a goodwill gesture.

Pops has offered to buy me lunch, which is kind, but since I am busy today I am unable to attend.
So Pops, can I just have the money then?

EF

[Maddog78]

Here you go.
A virtual cookie for virtual entertainment.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'W')ho forces people to sign up for those cards?
Who forces people to put more on those cards than they can pay off when the bill comes in at the end of the month?

Cut up your cards.
Don't take loans.

I've had one loan in my life apart from a mortgage.
My first car after I got out of school and I paid it off in 7 months.
Bought every other car, motorcycle, boat, whatever, cash.
If I couldn't pay cash, I didn't buy it. Simple.
Paid off my mortgage in less than 12 years.

Live within your means.
It's an almost unheard of concept nowadays.

[efarmer]

That's why I virtually love you Maddog... You have very nice cookies.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fred', 'G')otta have a place to live and unless you're independently wealthy or your parents are and you're just starting out there's not much way to get a place to live unless you rent other than finance a home unfortunately. Same thing happens when renting as financing a home. Loose your job, loose your place to live.

[Maddog78]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '
')+1 Maddog, all the way. My depression era parents spirits are cheering you!

What is so sad is that things have gotten SO screwed up in the U.S., that pointing this out is considered "mean" and politically incorrect by those who want to turn the economy into one giant wealth transfer machine to help those who "need it" (i.e. act irresponsibly).

Time to get in the foxhole. Verbal shrapnel likely on the way...

[Maddog78]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', 'T')hat's why I virtually love you Maddog... You have very nice cookies.