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Schools today are ludicrous!

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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby WildRose » Tue 26 May 2009, 11:59:42

Another thing - my biggest beef is awards in schools. In my experience, it's always the same kids getting awards for the same things.
Too often, a lot of kids are not recognized for things they do really well, and it's often art, music, creative writing, etc. that goes unrecognized. The awards are usually given to kids with the highest marks on tests, and as another poster wrote, there are long assemblies in school every month that everyone has to sit through. My kids received a few awards in school - citizenship awards (which I considered important), science fair and basketball MVP. I just think too much "awarding" is not necessary.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 26 May 2009, 12:21:59

Wow, so much . . .


Jotapay - I'm an old man. I've been around far longer than I ever thought my sentence would require.

you wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Luckily, if I ever have kids, I live in a district with one of the top 100 rated high schools in the country. Anderson High School in Austin. I know it's still public school, but it's better than most in many ways."


We lived in 2 school districts. One was the top school or 2nd in the state (a wealthy one), which put it easily in the top 300 in the country. The other was easily in the top 10 school districts in the country.

It . . . does . . . not . . . matter.

You get fewer weapons, higher SATs, and so on, but at the end of the day, the essential belief in the system is non-existent. They're holding tanks is all.

The first school I mentioned had a rampant alcohol problem. Several dozen kids did not graduate because they blew the wrong number into the ethanol meter at the prom. My kids went to one dance. My daughter described it as a "clothed orgy" and that was the last dance they went to.


@SPG-
As for estimation, I agree completely with you that strong estimation skills are wonderful to have.

I should have phrased it better - they were beating this estimation thing into the kids for months on end, and it was our belief that the kids couldn't even do the underlying math.

I'd say, 1st teach them that 320+510 is 830, and later, after that is mastered, teach them to estimate 300 + 500 is 800.

I completely agree with you that math is taught poorly and most people never get any feel for math.


My favorite example. Ask somebody what 2x2+2x2 is. Most people won't know. Then ask, "what's 2 apples plus 2 apples?"
4 apples. What's 2 boats plus 2 boats? 4 boats. Whats two eks squared plus two eks squared? four eks squared? RIGHT!

Same with others

Ask kid - what's 3 thousand plus 2 thousand (horrified look).
Repeat above process with as many permutations as necessary.

What's 3 dogs plus 2 dogs?
and so on . .
until they get, intuitively, that 3 anything plus 2 anything is 5 of the anythings.

Finally, I can supply an AMEN to the notion that, at the end of the day, it's all or almost all on us parents.

The idiot factories are what they are for many reasons, but if every parent cared about their kid education, then most of the issues would subside tremendously.

Unfortunately, the generations now having kids are themselves the product of the factories, so there is no hope for a near turnaround.

It's like that line in No Country . . .

"Today's kids are being raised by their grandparents. But I wonder, who is going to raise their kids?"
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Windmills » Tue 26 May 2009, 13:41:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'F')inally, I can supply an AMEN to the notion that, at the end of the day, it's all or almost all on us parents.

The idiot factories are what they are for many reasons, but if every parent cared about their kid education, then most of the issues would subside tremendously."


AMEN!

However, even with good parents, you're still only going to get so much out of the school because of the system of requiring a kid to stay in a grade all year, regardless of whether or not he's already learned everything for that grade in just one month. And the social aspects mentioned above are largely kid-generated, so the staff can't do much about them.

As a teacher, two of my biggest concerns about public schools are the pacing and the social atmosphere.

The classrooms are geared toward the average student. Schools struggle, and usually fail, to properly teach the students in the highest and lowest portions of the class. It’s not for lack of trying, but simply that it is very difficult to do given the staff-student ratios. If there are 30 kids in the class and the class lasts 60 minutes, each kid might get 2 minutes of personal attention per class, 12 minutes for the whole day. For that reason, I think one could home school their child in a fraction of the time it takes a public school to get across the same message: not even the best schools can compete with one-on-one attention. The result of the classes being set at an average level is that the brighter students are held back and the students with difficulties tend to drown. There ends up being a lot of repetition of content throughout the grades to keep everyone on the same page, just for the sake of logistics. For any motivated student, the system ends up being a huge waste of time. I don’t believe one has to be a genius to graduate from high school before becoming a teenager as long as you’re being taught at your own pace, rather than being forced to slow down grade after grade.

The social atmospheres in schools are corrosive to me. It’s not the fault of the schools. The children themselves create the whole Lord of the Flies effect. I hear other parents tell me that I need to send my kid to public school for the socialization aspects. Sometimes I am at a loss for words when I hear that. Every value I want to pass on to my son is undone in public school. I’m not even talking about the whole “this school is too liberal/conservative” crap, I’m just talking about the basics: cheating on tests, disrespect to other people, manners, stealing, doing drugs, violence, bullying, being proud of being lazy and dumb, and so on and on. These are the role models from whom people want their children to learn their social skills? Worst of all, perhaps, is the social idea that it’s uncool to be smart and a good student. It’s a school, for Christ’s sake! The last thing I want is for my son to get hazed because he raises his hand, works hard, and participates too much in the classroom. “Hey, let’s beat up the nerds today!”

If schools were self-paced, had no grade levels, and weren’t filled with other poorly socialized children of incompetent parents, I’d send my son to public school. I may have him do some online schooling if the internet still exists when he’s old enough. Otherwise, I’ll help his grandmothers home school him.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Roy » Tue 26 May 2009, 14:07:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have a couple for you, JJ. You'll probably notice, as your child goes through school, that birthday parties have reached new heights. I have been amazed at what parents will do for their kids' parties. It's very competitive. It seems like parents have a need to make their child's birthday celebration bigger than the last party they attended, and some spare no expense!


My wife and I used to joke about that.. we called it the Birthday Party Arms Race.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 26 May 2009, 19:46:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '2'). Daughter takes an 8th grade science class (top level) in which the teacher incorrectly teaches that a straight chain octane molecule has many structural isomers that can be formed by bending the bond angles to 90 degrees. I take the time to send in a correction for him, including all required citations. 2 years later I see that he is still handing out the same worksheet with the same gross error (he must be related to YesPlease).


I can top that. My 9th grade science class. Student asks the teacher, "Well if there's a vacuum in space, when planes fly up high in the atmosphere, why don't they get sucked out into space?" Teacher responds "Well...they have engineers that carefully balance them to prevent that." This is the same guy that was holding a test tube over a bunsen burner. It started to get hot, so he wrapped a paper towel around it and put it back over the burner. From what I hear, the fire was quite impressive. We were trying to do a demonstration of the Coriolis effect one day. You do this by slowly spinning globe and dribbling water at the pole. The water will run in a curvilinear fashion to the equator. The teacher spins the globe as fast as he can get it going. The water runs down to the tropic of cancer, and then sprays all over the room from the centrifugal force. This, he explains, is the Coriolis effect.

And yeah. Graduating kindergarten is ridiculous. There are probably classes that can't afford text books because the school spent all its money on congratulation caps.


Ok lemme see if I can answer the plane in space question.

Gravity keeps the plane from escaping into orbit, and there is of course a further out point where one would escape even orbiting the earth.

More directly, a jet plane cannot enter the stratosphere (i think I have the right 'osphere there) because there isn't enough oxygen to power the engines. That's why the rockets have their own liquid oxygen supply, and it sprays out of nozzile below the engine, thereby creating the friction required for acceleration. And that's how vehicles are able to propel themselves in the vacuum of space.

I didn't google anything, did I get the answer right? Do I graduate kindergarten now? ;)

EDIT: to be realistic about teachers, let's just say it how it is. Most new teachers are what, 22 years old? So I'm sorry, I don't care if you have a bachelor of arts majoring in education, any 22 year old is essentially an idiot. No life experience.

And to be more fair, even science teachers have specialized their studies in something specific. My brother in law holds a BS in biology and teaches chemistry and physics in a private school (yes, he is a creationist -- drives me mad). He also holds a masters in education and makes very good coin teaching online college courses on the side.

I'll have to try this plane in space question on him.. I'm 99.999% sure he'll have no idea about the answer. Or he'll just say "gravity" with no real understanding of the specifics.

So my point here is, majoring in biology between the ages of 18 - 22 HARDLY makes a person an all-around expert in EVERY field of science and engineering. What it really takes are DECADES of interest in these fields to attain enough general competency in all fields to answer basic questions from high school kids.

Now if you're thirty years old and hold a Phd and have spend your post-graduate years in research work, then now we're talking about real competency. But these folks aren't teaching middle school science, now are they?
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Windmills » Tue 26 May 2009, 20:05:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'O')k lemme see if I can answer the plane in space question.

Gravity keeps the plane from escaping into orbit, and there is of course a further out point where one would escape even orbiting the earth.

More directly, a jet plane cannot enter the stratosphere (i think I have the write 'osphere there) because there isn't enough oxygen to power the engines. That's why the rockets have their own liquid oxygen supply, and it sprays out of nozzile below the engine, thereby creating the friction required for acceleration. And that's how vehicles are able to propel themselves in the vacuum of space.

I didn't google anything, did I get the answer right? Do I graduate kindergarten now? ;)


All but the friction part. A rocket works through Newton's Third Law, or conservation of momentum. It doesn't need friction or air to push off. Equal and opposite reactions drive the ship one way and the exhaust the other way. You might think of it as those two things pushing off from each other. A rocket actually works better in space than in the Earth's atmosphere because of the reduced air friction and gravity.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 26 May 2009, 20:24:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'O')k lemme see if I can answer the plane in space question.

Gravity keeps the plane from escaping into orbit, and there is of course a further out point where one would escape even orbiting the earth.

More directly, a jet plane cannot enter the stratosphere (i think I have the write 'osphere there) because there isn't enough oxygen to power the engines. That's why the rockets have their own liquid oxygen supply, and it sprays out of nozzile below the engine, thereby creating the friction required for acceleration. And that's how vehicles are able to propel themselves in the vacuum of space.

I didn't google anything, did I get the answer right? Do I graduate kindergarten now? ;)


All but the friction part. A rocket works through Newton's Third Law, or conservation of momentum. It doesn't need friction or air to push off. Equal and opposite reactions drive the ship one way and the exhaust the other way. You might think of it as those two things pushing off from each other. A rocket actually works better in space than in the Earth's atmosphere because of the reduced air friction and gravity.


Well I googled it, and it appears I am right about rockets carrying their own oxygen to achieve thrust:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he main difference between jet propulsion and rocket propulsion is that in rocket propulsion the oxidizer is carried with the vehicle, but jet propulsion the oxidizer is the oxygen in the air sucked into the engine of the plane. Because there is no oxidizer in space, rockets need to carry their own oxidizers with them.
http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/project ... m-jet.html


But you've got me thinking here. What exactly enables movement? I had thought there must be one thing pushing off against another. Example.. if somebody picks you up and then you run with your legs a foot off the ground, you won't have any forward motion because the air you're pushing off against is much weaker than if your feet pushed off the ground.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Blueberry » Tue 26 May 2009, 20:35:58

I don't see any problem with K students graduating, personally.

I do see a problem with schools that are so underfunded (and focused on no child left behind) that they look like women's prisons.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 26 May 2009, 20:58:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'F')inally, I can supply an AMEN to the notion that, at the end of the day, it's all or almost all on us parents.

The idiot factories are what they are for many reasons, but if every parent cared about their kid education, then most of the issues would subside tremendously."


AMEN!

However, even with good parents, you're still only going to get so much out of the school because of the system of requiring a kid to stay in a grade all year, regardless of whether or not he's already learned everything for that grade in just one month. And the social aspects mentioned above are largely kid-generated, so the staff can't do much about them.. . . [clipped]
If schools were self-paced, had no grade levels, and weren’t filled with other poorly socialized children of incompetent parents, I’d send my son to public school. I may have him do some online schooling if the internet still exists when he’s old enough. Otherwise, I’ll help his grandmothers home school him.


Nice post.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 26 May 2009, 22:37:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'O')k lemme see if I can answer the plane in space question.

Gravity keeps the plane from escaping into orbit, and there is of course a further out point where one would escape even orbiting the earth.


IMHO, the question is best answered with a counter question. Why is there a vacuum in space? Because gravity holds the air down. Planes are heavier than air, so if gravity is sufficient to hold all the air in and keep it from getting sucked out, it's sufficient to hold the plane down as well. Plus the fact that planes get their lift from interacting with the air. No air, no lift. And planes get their power by burning jet fuel. No air, no burning, and therefore, no thrust.

The question sort of betrays a fundamental lack of understanding about how vacuums work. A vacuum is nothing. It has no ability to do anything. What appears to be the sucking action of a vacuum is in fact the work being done by atmospheric pressure to try to fill the vacuum. The vacuum of space has no interaction with an airplane what so ever. It's a question of less and less interaction from the atmosphere the higher you get.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sixstrings', 'A')nd to be more fair, even science teachers have specialized their studies in something specific. My brother in law holds a BS in biology and teaches chemistry and physics in a private school (yes, he is a creationist -- drives me mad). He also holds a masters in education and makes very good coin teaching online college courses on the side.


Yes. I believe the scientific field of specialization for this particular teacher was probably exercise science. Specifically he was an assistant football coach. Unfortunately he was far too fat to teach PE, and the health class was already occupied by another coach. He got stuck teaching science and at least 25% of the students understood the curriculum better than he at any given moment. Nice enough guy, but dumb as a stone.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 26 May 2009, 22:56:44

Man, you don't see so much when you're a kid.

I remember back in 6th grade getting completely pissed off because our gym teacher wouldn't let us start to play dodgeball until this one girl, who was uncoordinated, would catch a beach ball he threw in the air. It used to take her about 5 tries.

It occurred to me only much later, much more cynically in life that that girl was the only girl in our class with a womanly bosom already in place.

Sick bastard.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Jotapay » Tue 26 May 2009, 23:05:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'O')k lemme see if I can answer the plane in space question.

Gravity keeps the plane from escaping into orbit, and there is of course a further out point where one would escape even orbiting the earth.


Pretty much. Not bad. Gravity is a Force. A Force in physics is defined as Mass multiplied by Acceleration. This equation is the keystone to all mechanical physics.

Since gravity is an attracting force acting on two bodies of definite masses (the plane and the planet's weight), the plane must exert more acceleration (defined as distance per unit of time per unit of time) with it's mass (which is a force) than the force exerted by the planet on the plane. This would be much simpler if I could draw you the equations and show you how to plug in each component and switch them out when needed. The plane, to escape the gravitational pull of the planet, must overcome the force of gravity exerted by the planet. This is called the minimum escape velocity. Since velocity is a component of acceleration, an object of a certain mass just needs a high enough acceleration and escape velocity to overcome the force keeping something on the planet. To understand all this stuff, a basic understanding of calculus (the slope of a curve, or the units of x per unit of y per unit of y (a derivative or rate of change)) is necessary. It's not tough, I could teach you in an afternoon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'M')ore directly, a jet plane cannot enter the stratosphere (i think I have the right 'osphere there) because there isn't enough oxygen to power the engines. That's why the rockets have their own liquid oxygen supply, and it sprays out of nozzile below the engine, thereby creating the friction required for acceleration. And that's how vehicles are able to propel themselves in the vacuum of space.


Basically, it does not have the capability to attain the required escape velocity relative the specific gravitational force experienced upon exit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'S')o my point here is, majoring in biology between the ages of 18 - 22 HARDLY makes a person an all-around expert in EVERY field of science and engineering. What it really takes are DECADES of interest in these fields to attain enough general competency in all fields to answer basic questions from high school kids.


Having gotten a Geology degree (which includes Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Geography, Calculus) and now being a programmer for 9 years, I am continually reading and learning new things. I basically make IT-related problems disappear for corporations and save them from making very costly mistakes, but I'm still regularly shamed by people who invariably know much more than me about IT and science. Can they implement what I do? Usually not, book smarts don't make someone effective with their boots on the ground. But learning is a continual process.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Jotapay » Tue 26 May 2009, 23:13:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', 'A') rocket works through Newton's Third Law, or conservation of momentum. It doesn't need friction or air to push off. Equal and opposite reactions drive the ship one way and the exhaust the other way. You might think of it as those two things pushing off from each other. A rocket actually works better in space than in the Earth's atmosphere because of the reduced air friction and gravity.


It still all boils down to F = MA. And G (gravity) is an F. Since M is fixed between the two objects, you need enough A (acceleration) to escape the gravitational force of the planet. It all depends on A.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Jotapay » Tue 26 May 2009, 23:14:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'B')ut you've got me thinking here. What exactly enables movement?.


The exertion of a specific amount of force on an object of specific mass creates a certain amount of acceleration (movement).
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Jotapay » Wed 27 May 2009, 00:26:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'L')uckily, if I ever have kids, I live in a district with one of the top 100 rated high schools in the country. Anderson High School in Austin. I know it's still public school, but it's better than most in many ways.


thats where I went to high school. prison bound by 18. we did all kind of stuff at Anderson, just better lawyers. (richer kids) I think parents make ALL the difference (now, in hindsight).


It's all relative. At my senior year at Heidelberg American Highschool, I was voted "Biggest Class Partier" and skipped 45 of the 90 days of my second semester as a senior. Somehow, I still did well. I was accepted to Uni of Texas at Austin twice. If I had actually studied, I may have done quite a bit more as far as academics are concerned.

But before I eventually enrolled at UT at the age of 25, I lived in Europe until I was 24, traveled to 25 European and African countries, had been to virtually every festival on the European continent, slept on the streets of almost every major European city. I read about the museums, history and art of the major Euro cities and would go there for long weekends, sleeping in my car and visit the Louvre, the Rijks Museum, D'Orsay, Windsor Castle, Canterbury, Prague, Budapest, Muenchen, Lisbon, Pamplona, Athens, Rome, Madrid, Dublin, Donegal, Belfast, Fez, etc. Sometimes they were just road trips to party with friends. I wrote down my impressions and what I saw. I knew at that point what it was like to live as a Euro and understand that distinct difference between Euros and Amis. That experience was more valuable than any academic education. I would never do it over again differently.

Books are not everything. Experience is twice as valuable as book learning.

My advice to anyone still wanting an education, is that if you have the means, sell/store virtually everything and go. Get enough money to eat for a few months, a few history/travel books, and go. You can find a job, just go. Make sure you have a good start on the books first, and then go balls-out on the experience. There won't be anything in this world you cannot do if you have enough experience.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Dawn » Wed 27 May 2009, 00:43:30

I read the first two comments made on this topic. I will say that I graduated from Christian Academy about sheesh 32 years ago. These ceremonies are nothing new. And I will be attending my youngest daughters this Friday.

Now I'll go back and read all three pages of comments...
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby AgentR » Wed 27 May 2009, 01:05:57

Just a simpler clarification of something that does tend to confuse people.

Cars move because wheels turn and there is a "pushing off of" kind of thing going on, namely wheel turning against the unmoving pavement.

People make the mistake of carrying this "pushing off of" idea to where it doesn't apply. A rocket/jet does not push off of anything, instead it throws a mass one way, causing the "equal and opposite law" to cause it and what its attached to (the plane) to move the other way.

Orbital mechanics are almost always described in terms of delta-V(elocity); ie, there is a certain velocity (speed and direction) at which the acceleration due to gravity will be insufficient to return the object to rest (splat). So its not so much a question of how FAR up something is, but rather how fast (and what direction) is it moving in. The low earth orbit that the shuttle normally uses is the perfect example; people think there is "no gravity" there; but nothing could be further from the truth. Gravity at that low an orbit is almost exactly what it is on the surface of the earth; the shuttle isn't floating, rather its in constant free-fall. However, its forward velocity causes it to constantly miss going splat! That free fall produces the near weightless environment that you see. To return to earth, the shuttle does NOT fire its rockets to reduce altitude; they are fired against the current direction of travel, reducing its velocity below what is required to keep missing and making a return to rest inevitable (hopefully with less splat and some measure of control).

nb... NOTHING bank turns in space. Ever. (pet peeve, drives me nuts)
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby coyote » Wed 27 May 2009, 07:14:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'n')b... NOTHING bank turns in space. Ever. (pet peeve, drives me nuts)

X-wing fighters do. :P
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 27 May 2009, 08:59:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'n')b... NOTHING bank turns in space. Ever. (pet peeve, drives me nuts)

X-wing fighters do. :P


Not only that, x-wing fighters make that cool sound every time they fire their lasers. Only sound doesn't travel in a vacuum.
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Re: Schools today are ludicrous!

Unread postby Windmills » Wed 27 May 2009, 11:09:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'n')b... NOTHING bank turns in space. Ever. (pet peeve, drives me nuts)

X-wing fighters do. :P


Not only that, x-wing fighters make that cool sound every time they fire their lasers. Only sound doesn't travel in a vacuum.


Yes, but from where do we assume the "virtual microphone" is sampling the sound? It could be from within the cockpit, in which case any kind of vibrations resulting from firing could be transmitted to the air as sound.

I liked how the bombs exploded in space in that asteroid field in one of the other Star Wars movies. There was no sound until the explosion washed over Obi Wan's ship.
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Tar Sands
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