[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'G')ood post Uber.

[bruin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', 'I')ndeed, Hitler's exermination rate was (sadly) exceeded in the massacre in Rwanda, recently. And what hi-tech weaponry did the perpetrators use? Machetes. You're telling me the Hutu's and Tutsi's are ANGLO-SAXONS. I'm sorry but that is BLATANTLY untrue.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('erl', 'I') wonder Lorenzo, do you also believe that Hitler never killed any Jews?

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'Y')ou said 1930's? Well, there you go.. 5-10 million deaths due to famine caused directly by Stalin's Collectivisation policy.

[Ebyss]

Actually, it is your argument that is flawed. Stalins policy directly caused the famine. He gave his people no choice but to comply with Collectivisation. They did what he said, or they died (Kulak's anyone?). He implemented a policy doomed to failure and did not correct it when it went wrong, instead he pushed forwrd with it and shot anyone who dared to oppose him. He was directly responsible for that famine and those deaths.

George Bush has no such policy on the consumption of fatty foods. It is entirely your choice if you wish to eat sh1t and die in America. Nobody is forced to eat fatty foods due to a dictators policy. The difference is choice.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'A')ctually, it is your argument that is flawed. Stalins policy directly caused the famine. He gave his people no choice but to comply with Collectivisation. They did what he said, or they died (Kulak's anyone?). He implemented a policy doomed to failure and did not correct it when it went wrong, instead he pushed forwrd with it and shot anyone who dared to oppose him. He was directly responsible for that famine and those deaths.

[erl]

Lorenzo: There are many posters on this site who maintain, well shall we say, less than full support for American policies. That is perfectly acceptable. Your particularly virulent anti-American positions are well known to readers of your own posts.

But in addition to that, now you seek to rewrite history and diminish America's role in World War II, or that of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. But there's more, now you have become an apologist for Stalin. Your credibility is suffering.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')It's not because Hitler was evil and because the Holocaust was one of history's worst crimes, that we should suddenly all relativize other war crimes or other genocides. This is intellectual blackmail of a narrowminded kind.

[erl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'D')id you know that the first two words an American baby utters are: "coke" and "hamburger", not "mom" and "dad"?

[lorenzo]

good one, erl.

Seriously though, I have read this somewhere, it comes from a real study. I'm going to check the BBC, they must have this story.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')It's not because Hitler was evil and because the Holocaust was one of history's worst crimes, that we should suddenly all relativize other war crimes or other genocides. This is intellectual blackmail of a narrowminded kind.

[PenultimateManStanding]

OK, I chew. Here is another 'perfectly grammatically correct' sentence: "To relativise WWII is to notice that the sun is not yellow, its chicken". I'm telling you as one who knows English very well that to 'relativise' other crimes is all but meaningless as you use the expression. How would one meaningfully use the verb 'to relativise' in the context of crime? It simply means to compare the gravity of the crime to other crimes. Example: Little Johnny has lied about stealing a penny candy at the store. Meanwhile Big John waved a gun in the face of the store owner and demanded money. Little Johnny's crime is relatively innocuous. Or one could say that Big John's crime was relatively gigantic compared to Little Johnny's. But now here comes Wicked Willie who shoots and kills the store owner. Now Big John's crime seems relatively benign. Get the picture? To 'relativise' doesn't make the crime worse or better, it just places it in a context to be compared to other crimes. So are you saying that we shouldn't be too hung up about Hitler's crimes because other people did nastier things or equally nasty things or what? OK, so on to 'intellectual blackmail'. Often used in literary English? You don't say! Care to give an example?

[gnm]

For your information Lorenzo, we don't have a TV and my 4 year old has never had a coke or soda of any kind for that matter. He was thirsty at the store the other day and went to the cooler and pulled out a bottled water from amongst the various sodas for me to buy him since it is what he knows. He has had a hamburger (which I made). I can't stand fast food.

So I see you've changed your opinion. Now Stalin has "only" killed a million in the 30's according to you - I believe you said "thousands" before? I'd say that was a tad off. He was a goddamn butcher. Oh and now Russia saved the US from Japan? Oh please! - Japan would have fallen anyways but with 1.5 million more dead had we invaded but I think the deciding victories against Japan were Midway and Oppenheimers creations...

pfffttt - I will read replies but I am done posting on this thread....

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')So I see you've changed your opinion

[Tyler_JC]

Do you realize that even (your hero) the USSR admitted to the purges of Stalin and the various other atrocities that he committed? The Kulaks were virtually wiped out in the 30’s. Millions and yes, I mean MILLIONS of people were murdered by his regime. He killed more people than Hitler did and worse, his regime enslaved more than 100 million people from 1922-1991. His morally bankrupt philosophy continues to enslave people in North Korea, China, and dozens of other countries around the world. Communism isn’t just anti-Capitalism, it’s anti-Democracy. It’s anti-religious (something that a Catholic such as yourself should care about) and it’s anti-Individual. There are no individual freedoms in Communism. It’s the “masses” that matter. It’s the “masses” that are rounded up by the millions and sent to concentration camps in Siberia. It’s the “masses” that are robbed of their land and forced into brutal serfdom. But, believe whatever you feel like believing. I'm not in the business of stopping free thought (unlike the Communists).

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'C')ommunism isn’t just anti-Capitalism, it’s anti-Democracy. It’s anti-religious (something that a Catholic such as yourself should care about) and it’s anti-Individual. There are no individual freedoms in Communism. It’s the “masses” that matter. It’s the “masses” that are rounded up by the millions and sent to concentration camps in Siberia. It’s the “masses” that are robbed of their land and forced into brutal serfdom. But, believe whatever you feel like believing. I'm not in the business of stopping free thought (unlike the Communists).

[lorenzo]

I'm far from being an anti-individualist.

I just watched Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 yesterday (a duo-DVD). These movies show that the USA is probably the most collectivist nation of modern history. (When all Americans together shout that they own a gun because it gives them freedom and individuality - they all become paranoid and they all end up being driven by the same impulses, the same fears, the same cultural memes - and there goes their cherished freedom, out the door; you may not like Mr Moore, but he established once and for all that Canada is far more free than the USA).

So I'm not against "freedom" and "invidivualism", I'm against the shallow American versions of it, which come down to collectivism.
No nation in history makes more fuzz about "freedom" than America, and no nation in history is more unfree than America. That's why the USA is a tragi-comedy. That's why Mr Moore finds all his hilarious stuff out there; reality in the USA IS one big joke.

[RIPSmithianEconomics]

This thread is a non-stop example of our obsession with the abstract.