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The problem with old people

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The problem with old people

Unread postby dukey » Sun 23 May 2010, 09:04:00

The problem is, they just cost so much god damn money. And since they are old, they aren't exactly useful members of society anymore. So, what to do with them ? Well it turns out the UK government had a great idea.

In the post this morning my dad recieved a letter asking if he would like a pneumococcal vaccine, since he is over 65. Standard practise it seems. Well my mum looked up what company manufacturers the vaccine on the NHS website. Turns out its Merk. Anyway, she then looked up the vaccine ingredients on the FDA website for the vaccine.

Image

Turns out one of the magic ingredients in phenol. So, looking to wikipedia to found out what this chemical they wanted to inject into my dad was, she was somewhat horrified to find this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')njections of phenol have occasionally been used as a means of rapid execution. In particular, phenol was used as a means of extermination by the Nazis before and during the Second World War. Originally used by the Nazis in the 1930s as part of its euthanasia program, phenol, inexpensive and easy to make and quickly effective, became the injectable toxin of choice through the last days of the war. Although Zyklon-B pellets, invented by Gerhard Lenz, were used in the gas chambers to exterminate large groups of people, the Nazis learned that extermination of smaller groups was more economical via injection of each victim, one at a time, with phenol. Phenol injections were given to thousands of people in concentration camps, especially at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Approximately one gram is enough to cause death. Injections were administered by medical doctors, their assistants, or sometimes prisoner doctors; such injections were originally given intravenously, more commonly in the arm, but injection directly into the heart, so as to induce nearly instant death, was later preferred.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol#Second_World_War

Wow, and they inject that into people. Naturally he declined to have that injected into him.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby ian807 » Sun 23 May 2010, 10:04:46

Your argument is silly. Warfarin, an anticoagulant used in rat poison, is regularly used for heart patients. Botulism toxin (i.e. "Botox") is used not just for vanity, but to relieve excessive sweating and migraine.

Even water is poison, if you take enough of it. Medicinal value is defined by dose as much as the substance.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby hillsidedigger » Sun 23 May 2010, 10:22:05

In the United States, 'for profit' healthcare providers routinely attempt to have healthcare procedures performed (if insurance, medicaid, medicare or someone else will pay for it) on elderly patients (for little benefit) that cost more than that elderly patient earned during their entire lifetime.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby the48thronin » Sun 23 May 2010, 10:54:24

The real problem with old people is WE EXIST!
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 23 May 2010, 11:48:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'T')he problem is, they just cost so much god damn money.


This is not true at all. It is not old people that cost a lot of money, it is your and theirs perception about their eldrely needs that costs a lot of money ( like new knees for a bed-ridden 82yo with dementia and a last stage of cancer). Most elderly people in the world do not cost more than their plate of rice and an occasional vegetable or two.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby dukey » Sun 23 May 2010, 12:04:45

I know old people aren't a problem. The tone of my post represents, 'government thinking'. I just find it alarming that they want to inject such deadly poisons into people. I mean 1 gram of phenol is supposed to kill ? Why is that even in a vaccine, at all !
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 23 May 2010, 12:14:41

I was operated on as a 14 year old kid after a motorcycle accident. Afterwards they gave me morphine. A modest dose can kill a kid. I believe Germans used morphine during WW2 too. They probably still do. I bet they drink water too. I think people can die from ingesting just about anything. Including an overdose of ridiculous myth.


And pretorian is right. Old people aren't costly at all. Let me explain: My wife and I have a modest nest egg (intended for our kids) and we are in agreement that it won't be depleted through a quick blast of medical heroics in order to add a few weeks or months to our lives.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 23 May 2010, 13:33:18

My grandmother was a Campho-Phenique ninja warrior. I think the Phenique (Phenol) was the
thing that killed the germs, stopped the itching, etc. etc. but this was the era when
stuff that made you better had to stink, sting, or taste so horrible you wouldn't accept it
unless you were desperate as hell. Phenol has a long history of medical use, and it doesn't
surprise me a bit that it is toxic. Nowadays I could have googled the stuff and claimed
Grandma was involved in a conspiracy to make me androgynous for getting bit by mosquitoes,
but back in the day, Grandma could dab bad sh*t on your big booboo and make it all better.
She slowly put my grandfather to death by forcing him to eat bacon and eggs until his ticker
quit.

Another common torture applied to children who hurt themselves were the "dabber bottle
evil twins" of Mercurochrome and tincture Merthiolate (yep, both containing mercury).
Mercurochrome did not sting and either colorful compound could pull off the required
sunshine tattoo totem application to a wound, but Merthiolate was the tool the old
skirts laid on you that was a wound prevention medication. You would dance and howl
and cry and scowl at the sunshine face as if it was a Happy Face on an enema bag and
when the pain subsided and you went back outside, you made damn sure you didn't
hurt yourself again. My Polish grandma was a Mercurochrome maniac who followed up
with a Kool-Aid PRN regimen, and my German grandma was a Merthiolate maiden who
figured if you were stupid enough to keep hurting yourself, you sure as hell didn't need
a sugar drink to wire you up again before you went back outside.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby eXpat » Sun 23 May 2010, 13:57:43

Image
It may contain traces of phenol.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 23 May 2010, 16:03:06

If you think old people are expensive, just wait until you start paying to raise a young person. :idea:
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 23 May 2010, 19:39:13

Suffering from a sore throat in the UK, I went down to the chemist for something to gargle. Back at the B&B I took a mouth full straight from the bottle and did an instant spit take because it was about 50% phenol !!! Reading the directions, it said something like put a teaspoon in a cup of water and gargle with that.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 23 May 2010, 21:11:51

I'm middle aged and I know about 20 people who are at or near turning 65, which is retirement age here in Canada.

What really worries me is that none of them have any concept of imminent social or economic collapse. (Despite my forewarnings to prepare). They have no backup plans, no preps, and they absolutely expect business as usual to continue indefinitly. They have their savings and the Canada pension plan, and it never occurs to them that all the savings, including government investments, are sitting in corrupt financial instruments. Deritives, mutual funds- where at any given time you don't know where the money is invested, sub prime mortgage backed securities, and the list goes on and on.

What happens when all this 'invested' money is lost or devalued by hyperinflation? Then what do all the old people do? I certainly can't support them all. My parents generation were from the time where families all had 6-10 kids each, where since the pill and demographic transition my generation has 2-3 kids per family, and even less people being are being raised from the existing next generation; as familes wait till they are in their 30's before even considering starting familes!

Also what of the very old, the Greatest generation elders in their eighties, or nineties. How would they cope with a public collapse within the next 5 years? A generation that believes the Earth is only six thousand years old and in the literal truth of bible stories like Noah's arc. How do you explain imminent collapse, to people who are unable to understand entropy, limits to growth, diminishing returns on complexity, and so forth?

There will be tough decisions ahead; do I feed myself and my kids, or do I feed the dozens of elders who are loved, but completely unprepared for collapse? I can't see this ending well for anyone involved.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 23 May 2010, 23:26:18

Yup, I'll be 60 this year.

I see a lot of folks get to this age and croak. Lost a buddy at 56 last week to lung cancer. He used to run my buns off. Never smoked.

That is why I am trying to retire ASAP. Getting the wife to come along is the problem.

So we have a nest egg, a couple of sailboats, bug out property, small apartment building, 401k.

I'm an electrical engineer and generally a pretty handy guy.

As long as I can keep my health we will be OK. But if not then we will have real problems, as anyone would.

I don't look forward to my own demise and I will avoid it to the end. But I sure don't want to end up in a hospital bed or motorized wheel chair.

I get the sense that a lot of guys just "check out" once they get the feeling that they are through with being productive. I intend to be productive for a long time, if possible.

But I gotta tell you, I don't see a lot of younger folks with a damn lick of common sense or the ability to survive outside the manufactured environment they grew up in. Life will suck for them.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby the48thronin » Sun 23 May 2010, 23:57:00

Most of us in the "duck and cover" generation never expected to get this old, I cant speak for all of them, but among the people I know well enough to have serious discussion with, none of us fail to understand the example set by the older infirm people of previous civilizations who "went out to the place of rest to await the end peacfully content that our time has come."
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby careinke » Mon 24 May 2010, 03:19:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I think people can die from ingesting just about anything.


Not pot. :)
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby paimei01 » Mon 24 May 2010, 04:28:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'T')he problem is, they just cost so much god damn money. And since they are old, they aren't exactly useful members of society anymore. So, what to do with them ? Well it turns out the UK government had a great idea.


"Useful members" ? hahaha. What is that? Can't you see we are fighting among us - for the right to produce garbage ? Else - no food for us ? Look here:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=19193
People working 12 hours a day producing false eyelashes. Very useful. Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk
People built a city - but it remains empty. Very useful.
Want to know why they do it ? Because they don't have direct access to the work for the basics of life, and the result of that work. They are slaves. The rich ones profit from this, they condition their survival on - producing garbage, or empty cities.

More here:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/wh ... -work.html
Image
What is this ? Exactly what I said it is. The ones bellow - don't have access to what they produce. Else - they would take it easy, produce only what they need, be happy not angry when someone invents a machine that does all the work, and let the ones above die. This is slavery.


"All my money has been invested into experiments with which I have made new discoveries enabling mankind to have a little easier life." Nikola Tesla

Nice. What happened next:
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/ ... ticle/2962
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')achines can save labor, but only if they go idle when we possess enough of what they can produce. In other words, the machinery offers us an opportunity to work less, an opportunity that as a society we have chosen not to take. Instead, we have allowed the owners of those machines to define their purpose: not reduction of labor, but “higher productivity”—and with it the imperative to consume virtually everything that the machinery can possibly produce.


Also see:
http://harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')griculture is a recent human experiment. For most of human history, we lived by gathering or killing a broad variety of nature's offerings. Why humans might have traded this approach for the complexities of agriculture is an interesting and long-debated question, especially because the skeletal evidence clearly indicates that early farmers were more poorly nourished, more disease-ridden and deformed, than their hunter-gatherer contemporaries. Farming did not improve most lives. The evidence that best points to the answer, I think, lies in the difference between early agricultural villages and their pre-agricultural counterparts—the presence not just of grain but of granaries and, more tellingly, of just a few houses significantly larger and more ornate than all the others attached to those granaries. Agriculture was not so much about food as it was about the accumulation of wealth. It benefited some humans, and those people have been in charge ever since.


Think there is not enough for all ? 3 million farmers in US produce enough food for 2 billion people... But they don't have access to it, they must fight against each other, to produce garbage, to serve their masters.

I am not "communist". I am for this : each person must have direct access to the work for the basics of life, and the result. Wants more ? Free to obtain more, I don't care how, if he likes working for others - let him do what he wants, and obtain what he wants. But - this system must not be applied for the basics. This means - nobody would be blackmailed to work at producing garbage anymore. It would be people's choice. That's what I understand by free people, then we will see if this madness is what we really want.


Do you think that by producing more false eyelashes - the quantity of rice increases ? Why are those people producing them ? Because - they are slaves. Produce garbage to make the slave master rich - else no rice for them.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 24 May 2010, 10:28:56

paimei, sounds like the Cultural Revolution nightmare repackaged to me. Human labor is specialized for a reason. If all of us try to grow potatoes or rice, it can not be done as a hobby; there is no spare or free time involved for those so engaged. The only difference is, you end up having millions of people, who are completely horrible at growing things, trying to grow the food that they and their family desperately need.

Yeah, its true, I might be one of those that would prefer digging the dirt, and growing the food; but having had some experience with this as a child on a production scale sufficient for a few families, its not so foreign; you go throw all those minimum wage laborers who's greatest skill is finding the "5" button on the cash register onto the land, with no notion of when, what, where, why, and how much; and all you'll end up with is millions of starving people; millions of acres of ruined farmland, and a ruling class with power like as has never been seen in the Western Hemisphere.

As to old people, or kids, costing too much? Please. What is costly is middle class, middle aged Americans and Europeans decisions about what they will inflict upon the old or young in the way of medical intervention. Always desperate to "fix" people.

JUST STOP IT.

nb. I prefer pickled cabbage and cauliflower with my rice. Cukes are just wrong.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby paimei01 » Mon 24 May 2010, 13:15:03

No. With today's technology 3 million farmers produce enough for 2 billion people. I am not for some middle ages type of agriculture. Imagine there is this system in place, where people cooperate and use every invention they can use - to produce the basics. All that join obtain them free, and all take turns working. If they succeed in using technology so there is no room for all to work. So you join there, work 1 month a year, obtain the basics for 1 year. The rest of the time free to do what you want. Get a job, whatever. I am sure there will be no more people willing to work 12 hours a day making garbage.
But - what matters is who owns the land, and the resources needed.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 24 May 2010, 16:15:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'N')o. With today's technology 3 million farmers produce enough for 2 billion people. I am not for some middle ages type of agriculture. Imagine there is this system in place, where people cooperate and use every invention they can use - to produce the basics. All that join obtain them free, and all take turns working. If they succeed in using technology so there is no room for all to work. So you join there, work 1 month a year, obtain the basics for 1 year. The rest of the time free to do what you want. Get a job, whatever. I am sure there will be no more people willing to work 12 hours a day making garbage.
But - what matters is who owns the land, and the resources needed.



You had a good start but you went somewhere weird after that. Think for yourself: if 3 million farmers with their 36 milion humo-monthes produce enough food for 2 billion people, how do you stretch it into 2 billion humo-monthes, on top of existing farmer's employment? What are they gonna do there? Wipe farmer's assistent's assistent's butts?
Furthermore, do you know what people do with their free time? They drink, fuck and kill each other and then some. Imagine yourself a romanian city with all closed factories-- I'm sure you know what i am talking about. I actually can give you a direct example of your dream--- a few villages somewhere between Belarus and Russia, 1970s: as they had very poor soil, nothing grows there. Nothing, but flax. They worked 1 month a year, cropping that flax by hand. As nobody else could do it better then them, they were paid by volume and were getting enormous amounts of money by soviet standarts--3,4, 5 and more thousands of rubels in 1 month. Guess what they were doing the rest of the year.
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Re: The problem with old people

Unread postby paimei01 » Mon 24 May 2010, 16:31:25

What's your problem with what other people do with their free time ? You can do some intellectual stuff if you like.
People will find stuff to do.
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/ ... icle/2962/
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was an attractive vision, and it worked. Not only did Kellogg prosper, but journalists from magazines such as Forbes and BusinessWeek reported that the great majority of company employees embraced the shorter workday. One reporter described “a lot of gardening and community beautification, athletics and hobbies . . . libraries well patronized and the mental background of these fortunate workers . . . becoming richer.”
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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