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THE Neanderthal Thread (merged)

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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby timmac » Sat 08 May 2010, 17:54:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'T')his is a post left by some one else on another forum I visit, he has similar views as I do and this is a good post, why are there different races if we came from a monkey ?????????


All of God's children are one race, the Human race. I pity those who do not understand this.



Yes we are all equal as God sees it, but the question is for those that believe we evolved from monkeys, shouldn't there be just one race than and not 4, surly 4 different types of monkeys did not evolve at the same time, this would be a trillion to one odds.

More proof that we did not come from monkeys, or at least I haven't anyways..
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby americandream » Sat 08 May 2010, 18:47:23

What's any of this got to do with the daily machinations of our bankers and well fed cigar smokers?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'T')his is a post left by some one else on another forum I visit, he has similar views as I do and this is a good post, why are there different races if we came from a monkey ?????????


All of God's children are one race, the Human race. I pity those who do not understand this.



Yes we are all equal as God sees it, but the question is for those that believe we evolved from monkeys, shouldn't there be just one race than and not 4, surly 4 different types of monkeys did not evolve at the same time, this would be a trillion to one odds.

More proof that we did not come from monkeys, or at least I haven't anyways..
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby sparky » Sat 08 May 2010, 19:02:14

.

We did not evolve from monkeys , all living things are related ,
we simply have somewhere a common ancestor
somewhere we all have a common ancestor with Jack the Ripper and Julius Caesar
we certainly evolved from primitive fishes , like all land vertebrates

What do they teach you in high school ??
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 08 May 2010, 19:23:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')f Neanderthals interbred with humans then ipso facto they were humans.

Rather talented humans too......


First, that cave painting was from the Homo sapiens, not the Homo Neanderthalus, there is no evidence of cave art from Neanderthal man or woman.

Secondly it is highly likely that the Haldane rule was in effect, when closely related species interbreed the female descendants are fertile but the male descendants are sterile for two or three generations. Modern examples are animals like Buffalo and European cattle cross breeds, or my favorite breed of cat the Savannah which is a cross between the common domestic cat and the wild Serval cat. Until the genes are less than roughly 20% from one parent line the males are sterile.

If this is what happened to Neanderthal then the willing to breed with any female Homo sapiens males would have fathered children who would have been fertile if female and sterile if male. Then those female children who resulted would have bred with a later generation of male Homo sapiens and the same thing would have happened a second, third and possibly fourth time. By the fourth generation the Neanderthal portion of the mix would be down to around 6%. After a few tens of millennia that has gotten weeded down to 4%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_%28cat%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldane%27s_rule


Hold on. The Neanderthal, judging by artist's rendering, is not a separate species, but a separate race. Also, the Neanderthals had a higher brain to body mass ratio than "homo sapiens". They were a variant, not a distinct species.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby timmac » Sat 08 May 2010, 19:31:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sparky', '.')

We did not evolve from monkeys , all living things are related ,
we simply have somewhere a common ancestor
somewhere we all have a common ancestor with Jack the Ripper and Julius Caesar
we certainly evolved from primitive fishes , like all land vertebrates

What do they teach you in high school ??


My common ancestor is Adam and Eve, and I did not evolved from a fish or a monkey, and the Neanderthals is a fantasy from the Evilution camp..
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 08 May 2010, 22:06:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Hold on. The Neanderthal, judging by artist's rendering, is not a separate species, but a separate race. Also, the Neanderthals had a higher brain to body mass ratio than "homo sapiens". They were a variant, not a distinct species.


Who cares what an artist rendered based on his inspired imagination? The DNA says they were a separate branch for over 400,000 years, more than long enough to be distinct but closely related sub-species. They used a different stone age technology level and did not produce art that we can determine was definitively theirs. They inherited the ability to make fire from our common ancestor Homo Ergaster/erectus. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Phylogenetic analysis of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA leads to a date for the common ancestor of the neanderthal and modern humans at around 465,000 to 600,000 years ago (four times the estimate for the common ancestor of all modern humans) (Disotell, 1999).
http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 08 May 2010, 22:23:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', '[')color=#0000BF]Yes we are all equal as God sees it,[/color] but the question is for those that believe we evolved from monkeys, shouldn't there be just one race than and not 4, surly 4 different types of monkeys did not evolve at the same time, this would be a trillion to one odds.


There are not 4 Human races, that is a cultural stereotype, not a genetic reality. Neither in the eyes of God nor Science are there more than one "race" of human beings. Two random people from the most geographically separated locations on the planet, are more closely related genetically than any other species of Hominid even in the same tribal group. Two silver back Gorilla's in central Africa are more genetically diverse than any two humans from opposite sides of the planet. The same is true for Chimpanzee's, Baboon's or any other closely related simian.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby timmac » Sat 08 May 2010, 22:33:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
There are not 4 Human races, that is a cultural stereotype, not a genetic reality. Neither in the eyes of God nor Science are there more than one "race" of human beings. .



Well just wait a minute there Tanada, I found this for you..


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat Constitutes a “Race”?

In the 1800s, before Darwinian evolution was popularized, most people, when talking about “races,” would be referring to such groups as the “English race,” “Irish race,” and so on. However, this all changed in 1859 when Charles Darwin published his book On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

Darwinian evolution was (and still is1) inherently a racist philosophy, teaching that different groups or “races” of people evolved at different times and rates, so some groups are more like their apelike ancestors than others. Leading evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould claimed, “Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.”2


http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... rent-races
http://s8int.com/
http://youtu.be/omm8Ey8vwbg
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 08 May 2010, 23:05:48

The small genetic diversity shared by various groupings of humans is responsible for spectacular differences. These include, but are in no way limited to, a very long list describing a host of such characteristics as eye, skin, and hair color, shape of teeth, thickness and shape of skulls, skeletal structure, height, and, yes it's true, cognitive and athletic aptitudes.

This wonderful human diversity, although created and shaped by tiny genetic differences, should be guarded, honored, and encouraged to flourish thereby avoiding a few more extinctions of our very own unique life forms (ok, we won't say 'races' if it's use at this time creates anger and is no longer politically correct) on our earth.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby timmac » Sat 08 May 2010, 23:27:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')(ok, we won't say 'races' if it's use at this time creates anger and is no longer politically correct) on our earth.



That's new to me, didn't know the term race meant anything raciest, I still see the word today on application forms, here it on the news, education programs, etc, etc,, have I been a sleep under a rock or what, was not a ware of this as a bad word ??

The word/term for race to me sets us a part of who we are as a person..
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 08 May 2010, 23:37:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Hold on. The Neanderthal, judging by artist's rendering, is not a separate species, but a separate race. Also, the Neanderthals had a higher brain to body mass ratio than "homo sapiens". They were a variant, not a distinct species.


Who cares what an artist rendered based on his inspired imagination? The DNA says they were a separate branch for over 400,000 years, more than long enough to be distinct but closely related sub-species. They used a different stone age technology level and did not produce art that we can determine was definitively theirs. They inherited the ability to make fire from our common ancestor Homo Ergaster/erectus. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Phylogenetic analysis of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA leads to a date for the common ancestor of the neanderthal and modern humans at around 465,000 to 600,000 years ago (four times the estimate for the common ancestor of all modern humans) (Disotell, 1999).
http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm


From linked article:
"Analysis of 11 different human gene trees SUGGESTS" I would say there could be just as much imaginative process going on in analysis that "suggests". I'm not going to quit saying it. Neanderthals weren't a separate species, they were a separate race. Your splitting hairs. A "closely related subspecies" that can interbreed with "us" IS us, Dude.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 09 May 2010, 01:08:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'T')his is a post left by some one else on another forum I visit, he has similar views as I do and this is a good post, why are there different races if we came from a monkey ?????????


All of God's children are one race, the Human race. I pity those who do not understand this.

such race had never existed. just a friendly fyi
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 09 May 2010, 01:11:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sparky', '.')

We did not evolve from monkeys , all living things are related ,
we simply have somewhere a common ancestor
somewhere we all have a common ancestor with Jack the Ripper and Julius Caesar
we certainly evolved from primitive fishes , like all land vertebrates

What do they teach you in high school ??


My common ancestor is Adam and Eve, and I did not evolved from a fish or a monkey, and the Neanderthals is a fantasy from the Evilution camp..

You mean you want to believe in this, but you do know that you know jackshit at best.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 09 May 2010, 01:18:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'T')his is a post left by some one else on another forum I visit, he has similar views as I do and this is a good post, why are there different races if we came from a monkey ?????????

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have a very simple theory that I believe proves evolution false. Well, actually not evolution as a whole, but the idea that man evolved on this planet from monkeys to date is easily proven false when you look at the whole picture.

As many "evolutionists" claim, we evolved on Earth from monkeys. This idea makes no since when you look at the whole picture. If all of us did evolve on this rock from a form of monkey, the races would be much more similar than they are to date. I'm not arguing with the fact that creation does evolve, because I believe it does. I am arguing with the crazy idea that we evolved from monkeys on this planet and are what we are today. If this theory were true it would not explain why there are THREE DIFFERENT RACES ON ONE LAND MASS!

For any person who has ever thought about this theory it must soon come very obvious that we were planted on this planet. When you think clearly about it, if we did all evolve from a form of monkey on this planet then that one form of ape would have spread across the land from sea to sea. Also it would only be one race.

Think of the odds of 3 different races of ape all evolving together on one land mass and holding their own separate piece of land to date. If we did evolve from ape that is what we are seeing today.

What I do think is more possible is that there were four separate races planted on four different areas of the planet. The Caucasian, Asian, African, Indian were all planted in four different areas not too long ago. We are now begging to mix into one race as we would have done a LONG LONG time ago if we did in fact evolve from an ape on this planet.

Also we have the stories of the world being destroyed in the past from a flood. These stories spread across the world. We have the theory now that we evolved suddenly from cromag to homosapien. There is the theory of the "supposed" ice land bridge that used to connect North America and Europe. Where is the land bridge now? There was no global warming back then for a huge ice bridge to just melt away. The Indians were planted where they were, just as the other three races were.

Bottom line, I believe there was intelligent design playing with our evolution and creation on this planet all along. When you really think about this theory you can begin to see how much of a reality this could be.



What made you think that this is a good post? This is a pretty big chunk of unlogical and ignorant crap. The guy doesnt know how many races are out there and what are they, but he gives an enlightening lesson to all anthropologists? I bet he is an American.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 09 May 2010, 05:46:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he small genetic diversity shared by various groupings of humans is responsible for spectacular differences. These include, but are in no way limited to, a very long list describing a host of such characteristics as eye, skin, and hair color, shape of teeth, thickness and shape of skulls, skeletal structure, height, and, yes it's true, cognitive and athletic aptitudes.

This wonderful human diversity, although created and shaped by tiny genetic differences, should be guarded, honored, and encouraged to flourish thereby avoiding a few more extinctions of our very own unique life forms (ok, we won't say 'races' if it's use at this time creates anger and is no longer politically correct) on our earth.


Ah I see, so these same tiny variations that create the differences between say the Doberman Pincer, Bull Mastiff, German Shepherd and Timber wolf must also be making them into 'unique life forms' ? So by your standards if we breed up a few hundred varieties of any species with inbreeding and character selection breeding in isolated populations it is just as good as having a separate species? We better get on with it for the species which are still alive so we can protect 'ecological diversity' right? No? But the Europeans have already breed hundreds of distinct phenotypes of Pigeons to demonstrate and enhance these very same kind of traits, surely that counts? No? Why not? Humans have done this with Dogs, Cats, Pigeons, Sheep, Cattle, Goats, Chickens, Ducks, Geese, Turkeys and so on and so forth to greater or lesser rates of success.

Genetic inheritance is a fascinating subject is it not? The fact that the last common ancestor in terms of Mitochondria with a Neanderthal is over 400,000 years before present while at the same time we have a 1% to 4% normal DNA inheritance tells us that there was inter breeding, but that none of the mDNA was passed down to our ancestors. Given that mDNA comes only from the Maternal line and that the Haldane Rule for primates is almost always Male sterile result then the possibilities abound. Neanderthal is almost completely gone, except for a few selfish gene's that have managed to keep themselves in the human population at large, mostly in European populations. But every human now alive can trace there 'mother descent' back about 74,000 years into central east Africa to Mitochondrial Eve, her mDNA is in all our cells slowly predictably altered over time.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby sparky » Sun 09 May 2010, 06:25:42

.

the various families , groups ,clans and nations developed variations due to local conditions and a good dose of blind luck
Genetics , particularly genetic identification of the mDNA for the mother line and the Y chromosome for the father allow one to trace one's deep ancestry
down to the early stone age ,
various haplogroups in both lineage have been identified , so have their travels from the African original group and the splitting of the various groups

That's the " human journey "

https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... atlas.html

a fascinating and powerful voyage down one's ancestry connecting all humans living and dead in a tree of life
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 09 May 2010, 10:04:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Ah I see, so these same tiny variations that create the differences between say the Doberman Pincer, Bull Mastiff, German Shepherd and Timber wolf must also be making them into 'unique life forms' ?


Dude, these tiny variations are older than species itself, according to best anthropologists of 20s century. I will repeat , according tto best anthropologists of 20s century, not just some gender-confused mongrels who happened to read 2 related articles on msnbc.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 09 May 2010, 11:41:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he small genetic diversity shared by various groupings of humans is responsible for spectacular differences. These include, but are in no way limited to, a very long list describing a host of such characteristics as eye, skin, and hair color, shape of teeth, thickness and shape of skulls, skeletal structure, height, and, yes it's true, cognitive and athletic aptitudes.

This wonderful human diversity, although created and shaped by tiny genetic differences, should be guarded, honored, and encouraged to flourish thereby avoiding a few more extinctions of our very own unique life forms (ok, we won't say 'races' if it's use at this time creates anger and is no longer politically correct) on our earth.


Ah I see, so these same tiny variations that create the differences between say the Doberman Pincer, Bull Mastiff, German Shepherd and Timber wolf must also be making them into 'unique life forms' ?



YES! Precisely! I'm glad a few others can understand the vital importance of this.

The lush diversity among humans is quite possibly the first steps toward the creation of new species (or races). If we as humans are ever going to get past our current and increasingly limited situation ... our seemingly primitive lot in life (and we're really not much different from neanderthals), then we must start somewhere. Crushing this evolutionary process in humans by denying that these slight differences exist is denying a natural process. Our fantastic and clearly apparent diversity represents what is no doubt the initial stages of a multi-branched evolutionary process.

So celebrate, protect, and encourage the differences.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby Pops » Sun 09 May 2010, 11:52:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')Our fantastic and clearly apparent diversity represents what is no doubt the initial stages of a multi-branched evolutionary process.

Naw, I don't agree, oil stirred the pot way too much. Speciation happens in isolation, either geographical or by evolving to a niche, right. I can't think of an example where humans are becoming more isolated and specialized - at least from a natural selection standpoint.
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Re: Neandertals did interbreed with humans

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 09 May 2010, 12:00:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')Our fantastic and clearly apparent diversity represents what is no doubt the initial stages of a multi-branched evolutionary process.

Naw, I don't agree, oil stirred the pot way too much. Speciation happens in isolation, either geographical or by evolving to a niche, right. I can't think of an example where humans are becoming more isolated and specialized - at least from a natural selection standpoint.




Totally, Pops. Up to the last few hundred years many groupings were quite isolated, but we all know that's changed now. So the groupings MUST now occur within the general population if this natural diversity is to be protected. When air and sea travel become a thing of the past (which, thankfully, may not be too far in the future) isolated human populations will again become the norm and we can again tread Gaia's holy road enhancing mother natures beautiful and wondrous work.
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