[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '
')Perhaps it is because this site has more of an even balance than the others?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '
')
Why, you thinking about changing profession from troll to stalker?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')ow! Forging new bonds for the coming millenia. How inclusive

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
') Do you honestly think the .gov or Joe Sixpack are going to do squat about PO until their backs are against the wall?

[JJ]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 's')nip

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
') Do you honestly think the .gov or Joe Sixpack are going to do squat about PO until their backs are against the wall?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')We will make major changes in our society when forced to by circumstances

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')We will make major changes in our society when forced to by circumstances

[sulayman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')We will make major changes in our society when forced to by circumstances, and not a second before that. As I said in my first post, peak oil is a simple scientific fact, it will happen whether we believe in it or not. The only question is the timing.

[mcgowanjm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '8')
The idea of collapse is not new, indeed its mythic spectre has probably always been a feature of civilisations8. In 1972, the famous Limits to Growth argued that economic growth could not continue indefinitely in a world of finite resources and limited sink capacity for our waste. It deployed simple scenarios and early examples of systems modeling to argue that a continuation of business-as-usual would lead to a limit to global economic growth, and thereafter a long slow decline9. Later, authors were more explicit about collapse. They cited ecological constraints as a cause, but also the interaction between the structural, functional, institutional, and behavioral conditions of society. Among the most important studies are Overshoot by William Catton, and The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter10,11. In recent years the genre has caught the attention of the reading public with the works of Jared Diamond, Richard Heinberg and others12,13,14,15,16. The web-based 'think-tank', The Oil Drum ( MY Edit-And even the OilDrum couldn't take 'We're acting just like Yeast Idea. But they are starting to come around I hear. Like Gail the Actuary alerted me via Carolyn Baker to
Feasta/TippingPoint has often had lively and informed debates on these issues.17

[AAA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', '
')how true. A PO believing co-worker asked me exactly that. "Why would you want to tell other people about it?"

[AAA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')But if evangelism floats your boat, go for it. Awkward conversations can be fun, too.

[seahorse2]

Haven't read any of the posts but those on the first page. I agree that the topic of PO on PO sites gets mired and muddied in all kinds of tangents loosely connected with resource depletion or some not at all connected (moon landings).

(1) I agree that many of these topics do nothing to help educate people about energy issues. Moon landings, for example, have no place in the debate.

(2) I understand how oil and energy issues get off on political tangents at least concerning foreign policy. Michael Klare has written several good books on the politics of resource depletion. I personally agree that resource depletion takes a political solution (since it involves foreign policy) and since changing energy policy or direction of the market requires regulation (opening places for drilling) and tax incentives. Thus, I don't think it is possible to eliminate the political issues from the debate, although there are many issues which are so tangential that they begin to side track from the argument. Global warming for example. If PO pessimists are correct, the resource depletion will take care of any man created problem. I guess people are worried about moving to coal etc.

(3) I think there is always a place for people to learn to be self-reliant on these sites and in fact not sure a site can be operated without offering people some insight as to changes they can make in their individual lives. Becoming energy aware and planning for a future includes not only investments for those with money to invest, but also requires people to try to change their behavior and become more energy efficient. Thus, if people want to garden, have solar ovens, etc., these things are helpful for people that want to make changes that impact their lives now.

(4) Personally, I don't think societies are capable of acting collectively to resolve resource limits issues, thus "the market" forces change through economic destruction. I wish that weren't the case, but unfortunately, it is. Most PO pessimists have predicted economic hardship (not collapse) based on resource limits, including Campbell, Hirsch, etc.

[AAA]

One thing that worries me is the loss of key active members and not being able to attract and retain new active members. Many members are getting tired of the endless nonsense that is 90% of po.com New members come seeking information and solutions but quickly realize peak oil related topics are a very small percentage amongst a lot of junk topics or junk posts that get good topics off course.

I took a break for several months because things were getting stupid. When I returned many of the key active members were gone and the posts had deteriorated even more rapidly. A few new faces showed up but things are worse than before. Some even left and started their own forums because things were just out of hand here.

Many people here are all talk. A few are actually furthering their knowledge of peak oil, “spreading the message”, and preparing themselves for a post-peak world. Others are just here to rant and rave on whatever is on their mind, peak oil related or not. It doesn’t matter to many.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', 'L')ies and more lies

[AAA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')Please stop lying about your "credentials," you're not impressing anyone.

[mos6507]

Let's not attribute undue significance to this site due to its domain. When this site was founded, perhaps it could claim to have a bigger slice of the pie, but these days there are so many directions in which people are bombarded with peak oil information, from books to documentaries to (yes, even MSM) news articles, to Transition booths at energy or farming fairs. This site could go offline tomorrow along with LATOC and TOD and there would still be plenty of avenues for people to learn about peak oil and limits to growth.

So the whole notion of the utility of a site like this (or even The Oil Drum) is questionable. The growing consensus is that "the converted" should log off of the damn internet and work with their neighbors. That's what Heinberg, Greer, Astyk, and just about everyone else are harping on about lately. And maybe if the neighbors just can't be reached, then move to a place where the people are more in tune with the message, and then get on with it.

Guess what, a lot of people, including those organic farmers you deride, are doing just that. They aren't wasting their time in flamewars with shorty and company. They are getting busy.

This site is kind of the purgatory for doomers who for whatever reason can't or won't find local support networks. It is not and will never be the driving force of peak-dom or social change. Few of the transition towners I've met in my travels even lurk here.

I lowered my expectations for this site some time ago. It's a glorified chatroom with a handful of weirdos who are loosely bound together with the common theme of peak oil, and yet who diverge so strongly on their underlying ideologies that they can't stop lunging at each other's throats. That's all it is.

The problem is I think some people are still in a 2004 sort of mindset of thinking about doom in a strictly theoretical/abstract context, for the purpose of future-prediction, and therefore they are merely analyzing the data rather than actually acting. That is the context in which this site was founded, or The Oil Drum, and we're in the age of consequences now. Make a plan and work it, as Pops says.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')preparing themselves for a post-peak world.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'L')et's not attribute undue significance to this site due to its domain. When this site was founded, perhaps it could claim to have a bigger slice of the pie, but these days there are so many directions in which people are bombarded with peak oil information, from books to documentaries to (yes, even MSM) news articles, to Transition booths at energy or farming fairs. This site could go offline tomorrow along with LATOC and TOD and there would still be plenty of avenues for people to learn about peak oil and limits to growth.

So the whole notion of the utility of a site like this (or even The Oil Drum) is questionable. The growing consensus is that "the converted" should log off of the damn internet and work with their neighbors. That's what Heinberg, Greer, Astyk, and just about everyone else are harping on about lately. And maybe if the neighbors just can't be reached, then move to a place where the people are more in tune with the message, and then get on with it.

Guess what, a lot of people, including those organic farmers you deride, are doing just that. They aren't wasting their time in flamewars with shorty and company. They are getting busy.

This site is kind of the purgatory for doomers who for whatever reason can't or won't find local support networks. It is not and will never be the driving force of peak-dom or social change. Few of the transition towners I've met in my travels even lurk here.

I lowered my expectations for this site some time ago. It's a glorified chatroom with a handful of weirdos who are loosely bound together with the common theme of peak oil, and yet who diverge so strongly on their underlying ideologies that they can't stop lunging at each other's throats. That's all it is.

The problem is I think some people are still in a 2004 sort of mindset of thinking about doom in a strictly theoretical/abstract context, for the purpose of future-prediction, and therefore they are merely analyzing the data rather than actually acting. That is the context in which this site was founded, or The Oil Drum, and we're in the age of consequences now. Make a plan and work it, as Pops says.

[AAA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AAA', '
')preparing themselves for a post-peak world.