[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', '
')In our own way, I think we each want to occupy the top seat, or at least have the safest, most comfortable seat. That I see as inherent.

[Olaf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o this is really a case of subjective ethics. Is preserving human life worth it at all costs? Or is attaining the maximum per capita quality of life worth more than the preservation of today's generation?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', ' ') I think we can do much to preserve life, just not perhaps 'way of life' as you discuss.

[eastbay]

It's all going to be about the organization of managing the economic collapse.

The growth requirements of capitalism have been demonstrated and discussed endlessly and we know it's anachronistic and doomed to create social chaos and pain for most survivors. So it's plain as day and clear that won't work.

Jumping across the political spectrum, we find green communism, which sounds ok. The problem is there are a zillion or more ideas regarding exactly what the otherwise pleasant sounding term means, additionally, some peoples ideas about this dream system may be adversely colored by emotion. So it will be...uh, to say the least 'somewhat tricky' implementing it.

But we're going to need some system and the one we now have definitely isn't going to be it.

[Last_Historian]

LH's Reply of the Day.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o people will determine what should be produced by anyone through opinion polls? That is, I couldn't just make something and try to sell it, I'd have to go through a process of opinion polls? I guess I'm a little confused. That anything not "necessary" (who decides what's "necessary"?) must go through a process of opinion polls? What pays for the polls?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', 'I')f you need access to limited stocks of resources or pollution credits to make your widget, then yes you'll need to interact with the cybernetic system to do that.

[Jotapay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', 'J')otapay, I'm interested in your thoughts on how you see humans as inherently 'corrupt' or how you define it in this sense?

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'I')'d rather take my chances in Nature, not some invented dystopia that you think people will submit to.

[Last_Historian]

@Ludi,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you don't know what to do with your own ideas, and admit they are "abstract" maybe they aren't all that useful in the Real World (TM)

[Jotapay]

How can the government solve a problem like societal collapse when they can't seem to do anything well that is even slightly complicated? Why should individuals trust any government when the government has shown that it is only concerned with its own survival?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', '
')Number theory was entirely "useless" until the advent of late 20th century cryptography. One can say the same of a great many other theories which were advanced before they found a practical interpretation. So what?

[SeaGypsy]

I am not a troll by any normal definition of the word. I am quite capable of retraction (as some posters here are very well aware). I appologise to you LH for the over the top vitriol I have at various times spewed forth in your general direction. I will henceforth acknowledge your split from Orlov as a given and continue reading your posts with interest, as many others here are. Forgive me for seeing a red button and pushing it. Thanks.
PS: I do not want to push you or anyone else away from posting on this site. I like to find as wide a variety of points of view and concepts as possible. I also respect those posters who follow normal posting etiquette for any weblog by responding to posts on threads they start, in a non reactionary mature fashion; even if their point is at odds with my own.
I am glad to see you have opened up somewhat to the community of posters here and are taking the position of a thesis in progress. I think this is a healthy approach.
Truce?

[Last_Historian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'H')ow can the government solve a problem like societal collapse when they can't seem to do anything well that is even slightly complicated? Why should individuals trust any government when the government has shown that it is only concerned with its own survival?

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he thing is, I am not very confident at all about any government - even one that really understands Limits to Growth - to solve the problem. However, I have zero confidence in the ability of individuals or small communities to solve the problem at the global level - which is ultimately the level that matters most, because our overshoot crisis is global.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', '
')As I've stressed before, I am not forcing anything on anyone.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', '
')Ecotechnic Dictatorship - Something along the lines I've described; a political system that does not worship coercion or authoritarianism, but possesses a mandate to employ them when absolutely necessary in order to build a sustainable ecotechnological civilization.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')Why would a local community want to solve problems at the global level? Fix your own neighbourhood first. If everybody started doing this, which eventually many will, then the grassroots solutions can be replicated in other communities. There's no need for an overarching heirarchy for this to work.

[Last_Historian]

@all,

Vote aye or nay for "ecotechnic dictatorship" @ http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/02/ ... se-ethics/

@mos,

Excellent point. As I've pointed out, there is really no way to make oneself or one's community anywhere near "collapse-proof". It's probably about 25% preparation and 75% cross your fingers

@SG,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you focus on such controls on major industry, whilst retaining personal freedoms, I think you have a chance of getting some real support.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')t's polyanna to assume that local transition movements will indeed be replicated everywhere, or even if they did, that they would be able to forestall collapse everywhere it's tried.
What that means is there will be a patchwork quilt of resilient communities and failed communities, some failing because they never bothered trying to be resilient, and others tried and failed for one reason or another.
If that's the case, resilient communities will face the threat of a refugee/zombie problem.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')But this would be the case in any collapse scenario unless you're an advocate of butchering all refugees.