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The R.A.V.E. Diet

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Pops » Tue 18 Aug 2009, 07:42:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')contribute more to global warming.

haha, I didn't know we were talking about gw!

The difference in digestion of grains is the type of bacteria that do the fermenting - I'm not saying it is the way to raise ruminants, just saying.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby seldom_seen » Tue 18 Aug 2009, 19:58:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 't')he more meat you eat the faster you will get gout, heart issues, cancer and other things

Myth.

The Inuit for instance subsist almost entirely on animal protein, and lead long healthy lives. If they switch to the standard american diet (SAD) they quickly start keeling over from diabetes and all sorts of other auto-immune complications.

The Japanese on the other hand, smoke like chimneys, but they have a way lower incidence of heart disease than Americans because of all the protein they consume.

Here's a simple experiment:

Take some meat and grind it up and mix it with water. What do you get? You get some meat mixed up with water.

Now, take some flour and mix it up with water. What do you get?
Glue, basically.

Which one do you think messes up your insides and causes all sorts of auto-immune disorders, hear disease and cancers?
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Narz » Tue 18 Aug 2009, 21:48:32

Statistically speaking meat consumption is correlated with heart disease, cancer, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

The Inuit are not particularly healthy nor do they live very long.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/di ... althy.html
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Narz » Tue 18 Aug 2009, 21:49:47

I do agree though that flour is not a particularly healthy food & I don't use it.

I assume flour (as a refined food) would not be consumed on this "RAVE" diet.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 18 Aug 2009, 22:21:02

You guys are crazy! [smilie=bduh.gif] Bread, noodles and pasta are the best !. [smilie=occasion14.gif]

It's all in the proportion. [smilie=drunken_smilie.gif]
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 00:21:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')tatistically speaking meat consumption is correlated with heart disease, cancer, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study


Please! :roll:

I'll see your one study, and raise you a book that quotes several hundred studies:

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad ... 681&sr=8-1
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 02:41:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'T')he Inuit are not particularly healthy nor do they live very long.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/di ... althy.html


They're not now that they're living on reservations, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, and eating wonder bread. That study is from the 1980's.

Compare with a study of Northwest Territory Inuits, which included changing mortality rates over the last fifty years:

http://ijch.fi/issues/63suppl2/ICCH12_Macaulay.pdf

From the conclusion:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')hanges in mortality patterns have reflected a transition in the Inuit way of life, with marked declines in infectious disease deaths, but increases in deaths from cancer, respiratory and cardiovascular diseases, unintentional injury and suicide
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 02:42:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'H')ere's a simple experiment:

Take some meat and grind it up and mix it with water. What do you get? You get some meat mixed up with water.

Now, take some flour and mix it up with water. What do you get?
Glue, basically.

Which one do you think messes up your insides and causes all sorts of auto-immune disorders, hear disease and cancers?


wow, I didnt know you can tell this by looking at food. Anyways, even if Inuits lived long lives, raw fish and dried/raw game meat is a bit different from what an average " westerner" would identify as " meat". So I am talking about average meats and processed meat products available in a supermarket--starting with hot-dogs and salamis and ending with fried/grilled beef/pork ets. That stuff will get you into the ground faster.

PS I'm glad noone refuted my points about eco-friendliness of meatetarians.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 02:51:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'P')S I'm glad noone refuted my points about eco-friendliness of meatetarians.


Well, I basically agree with you on point 1. Point 2 is pure rubish. I assume you were trying your best to piss off both sides of this debate?
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 03:42:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'P')S I'm glad noone refuted my points about eco-friendliness of meatetarians.


Well, I basically agree with you on point 1. Point 2 is pure rubish. I assume you were trying your best to piss off both sides of this debate?


lol, no. I thought I cleared my position in my last post. So, since its all rubbish, I assume these points will be correct:
a) no kind of meat raw or pre-processed can damage anyone in any way;
b) having 500-1000 previous generations dependent almost entirely on meat doesnt make any difference in one's adaptability to this diet;
c) Inuits, Esquimos, Chuckchis, Evenks and other peoples with similar lifestyle lived significantly longer than other hunter-gatheres.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 07:49:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') think it (the diet) could work out for many people. Personally I'd wonder how someone would get enough fat (specificly omega-3's) but if they ate ground flaxseeds & supplemented B12 (or ate an egg now & then) they'd probably be fine.

I have a lot of respect for vegans as they are doing more for the environment than just about anyone. The mother of my child is on a similar mostly-raw-food diet but I encourage her to take DHA and B-vitamins since she's still breastfeeding.

I was vegan myself for a number of years. I'm still mostly vegetarian. I still follow the R and mostly the V (except I use coconut oil & flax oil occasionally) rules. My housemate does too except he's a raw paleo (eats raw meat he buys from some Amish farms over the border in Penn. It seems to be working ok for him but he's young so who knows long term.


Eat green purslane. Grows like a weed. (If you don't like fish oil pills)
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 13:08:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'E')at green purslane. Grows like a weed. (If you don't like fish oil pills)

It's not the same. Plant based Omega-3 comes in the form of ALA.
Animal/fish based omega-3 comes in the longer chain EPA/DHA.

The human body is supposed to be able to synthesize ALA in to the longer chain Omega 3's. However the process is unreliable across different individuals and age groups.

That is the smoking gun to me, that a human being needs an animal/fish based diet to maintain proper nutrition.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 15:41:39

Narz +1
Smallpoxgirl 0

Are you a physician smallpoxgirl?? You sound like you know a lot of medical stuff and have done your homework really well, reading all the AMA reports. Therefore, you may be at EXPERT level of having been brainwashed!

I read the stuff you posted (skimmed it, let's say), and the AMA study of one-year duration with recruited subjects and very loose dietary conrols and non-specific regiment is suppose to tell me what??? Maybe drugs can be studied this way, but eating, I doubt it!

Mike Anderson's video presentation (I have the 2nd edition full version) is really persuasive. On the web is the 3rd, and latest edition, but it may be excerpted possibly and seems to present the data rather fast to assimilate. I like his style, very terse in a series of factoids. You challenge any one of those factoids and that will undermine his argument's persuasiveness, but his factoids are simple and to the point and if TRUE, quite surprising (as if we are not used to surprises on this board). :wink:

I suspect that the combination of inactivity and eating meats and fats and processed foods is the primary cause of heart disease. Having any left over product will stick it to your arteries. That is my explanation, although Mr. Anderson keeps to the facts and some simple conclusions:

That the American Diet is a form of self-inflicted mass suicide!

I found this searching the web on the historical record of heart disease.

History Of Autopsies
And Heart Disease
http://www.oralchelation.net/data/AutopsiesInHistory/data9.htm
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Narz » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 16:37:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')tatistically speaking meat consumption is correlated with heart disease, cancer, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study


Please! :roll:

I'll see your one study, and raise you a book that quotes several hundred studies:

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad ... 681&sr=8-1

The China Study invovled 800 million people over twenty years. Better one large study than a few dozen cherry picked ones.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Narz » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 16:45:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', ' ')

Eat green purslane. Grows like a weed. (If you don't like fish oil pills)

Yeah, I've had it, it evens tastes slimy. :-D I take a DHA supplement from algae just to cover my bases.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', ' ')
It's not the same. Plant based Omega-3 comes in the form of ALA.
Animal/fish based omega-3 comes in the longer chain EPA/DHA.

The human body is supposed to be able to synthesize ALA in to the longer chain Omega 3's. However the process is unreliable across different individuals and age groups.

That is the smoking gun to me, that a human being needs an animal/fish based diet to maintain proper nutrition.

It's not really a big deal, vegetarians rates of conversion were higher than expected in this study : http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 4/art00053

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough these are epidemiological findings and not the result of careful metabolic studies, the fact that the PLCn-3PUFA:DALA ratio is ≈22% is higher in vegetarians and meat-eaters than in fish-eaters indicates that there is greater conversion of ALA than in fish-eaters and may explain the smaller than expected differences in n-3 PUFA status between fish and non-fish consumers.


One of the main risk factors in a high-animal-product diet (among many) is all the adavanced glycation end-products in the diet which have been implicated in diabetic retinopathy and neuropathy, and probably contribute to development of type II diabetes. AGEs mess up the inner lining of the circulatory system. They amplify inflammation. They probably contribute to cancer development, too.

Short-term interventions of low AGE diets in humans reduce oxidative stress and inflammation.

In mice, the ones on diets that are not calorie restricted but low in AGEs live longer than the ones on diets that are calorie restricted but high in AGEs.

You get AGEs when you cook your food. The higher the temperature, the more
AGEs. The more fat, the more AGEs, cooked proteins, somewhat less, cooked carbohydrates, the least.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/1/6/1293

Whatever overhyped benefits the Inuit had from their diet probably would've been canceled out had they cooked their meat. People using these people to justify their 16oz grilled steak are missing the point.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 17:39:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'T')he China Study invovled 800 million people over twenty years. Better one large study than a few dozen cherry picked ones.


That is a completely misleading statement. The study looked at the prevalence of disease characteristics is the population at two time points. It didn't try at all to look at causation. I'm sure that lots of starch peddlers, including the Chinese government which funded the study, would love to play it off as if the only difference could possibly explain an increase in disease is increased consumption of animal protein. You're talking about the time period during which China became industrialized. It's not hard to come up with a list of about 10,000 other things that can pretty readily explain the increased occurrence of some of those diseases.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby Narz » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 19:38:33

It amuses me how you try to demonize the "starch peddles" when they make your cheap & easy meat eating life possible. Without cheap starch there would be no cheap meat. No Atkins diet, no low-carb fad. A pound of beef requires much more than one pound of grain (even most pastured free-range cows eat some grain). Heavy meat consumers require more grain than anyone else.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 19 Aug 2009, 20:11:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')t amuses me how you try to demonize the "starch peddles" when they make your cheap & easy meat eating life possible. Without cheap starch there would be no cheap meat. No Atkins diet, no low-carb fad. A pound of beef requires much more than one pound of grain (even most pastured free-range cows eat some grain). Heavy meat consumers require more grain than anyone else.

Meat farming doesn't require grain. Cows are happy to eat grass. Feeding them grain makes meat cheaper, but meat becoming more expensive is a good thing. The only "advantage" to cheap food is that it facilitates overpopulation. My wanting to eat critters is not what's new in history. My people have been eating critters since before recorded history. What's new is that there's too damn many people, and you ding dongs are convinced that I should start eating starch in order to make more room for them. Well screw that. There's a medical term for it when people eat starch. It's called pica and it's a psychiatric disorder. Starch is not food. Turning me into a feedlot cow is not a reasonable compromise to help the starving orphans of wherever. It's bad enough that they feed this crap to livestock. I ain't eating it. You dig?
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby virgincrude » Thu 20 Aug 2009, 12:39:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ') Vegetarianism is a dangerous fad. Humans are not intended to run off a diet of starch.


That has to be the funniest, stupidest thing you've ever said.

Wonder what the Hindu's would say about vegetarianism being a fad. Or Buddhists. A FAD?

Vegetarianism does not mean living off starch. And where are the studies confirming that humans are 'intended' to live off cooked meat/raw meat, raw vegetables/cooked vegetables?

What are you, a nutritionist?

Did you actually READ The China Study? Where in hell did you come up with the idea that it involved 800 million people?

See, it's a funny thing. People that incorporate more animal based proteins into their diets than before their 'westernisation' eventually start suffering the same diseases they never had big problems with before: high cholesterol, diabetis, high blood pressure, cancer. It's not a question of opinion, it's the clear and undeniable result of many hundreds of studies over a great many years.

The China Study does a great job of blowing the lid off the multifarious organisations designed to keep people away from switching to a healthier diet/lifestyle. It also goes into some detail about how the science gest skewed in order to produce opinions such as those of Smallpoxgirl.
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Re: The R.A.V.E. Diet

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 20 Aug 2009, 15:09:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('virgincrude', 'W')onder what the Hindu's would say about vegetarianism being a fad. Or Buddhists. A FAD?


Have you ever seen a Buddah statue? Does he look like the picture of fitness to you?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')egetarianism does not mean living off starch.


Yeah. It does. Have you ever tried eating 2000 calories worth of broccoli?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')And where are the studies confirming that humans are 'intended' to live off cooked meat/raw meat, raw vegetables/cooked vegetables?


Like I said, the bibliography of Good Calorie/Bad Calorie is an excellent start.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat are you, a nutritionist?

No. I'm a doctor.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')id you actually READ The China Study?

Did you?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he chief purpose of the study is to describe the wide range of
differences among different counties in lifestyles and disease-specific
mortality rates, rather than to analyse these differences in search of
direct evidence of causes. A few of the geographic correlations of
particular factors with particular diseases do yield good evidence of
causality (e.g., schistosomiasis rates in different counties are
correlated with intestinal cancer mortality rates, because in endemic
areas chronic infection of the wall of the large intestine with S.
japonicum greatly increases the incidence of colorectal cancer, which
is otherwise low), but the main value of this study is descriptive: the
extraordinary range of mortality rates and of lifestyles across different
Chinese counties deserves to be more widely known.link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ee, it's a funny thing. People that incorporate more animal based proteins into their diets than before their 'westernisation' eventually start suffering the same diseases they never had big problems with before: high cholesterol, diabetis, high blood pressure, cancer. It's not a question of opinion, it's the clear and undeniable result of many hundreds of studies over a great many years.

It's not a question of opinion so much as factual innacuracy. Japan has seen increasing consumption of animal protein over the last century accompanied by falling heart disease rates. The US has seen a rampant increase in starch intake over the last century with a huge spike in the 20 years that Ornish and company have been peddling their crap. Meanwhile, our heart disease rates have skyrocketed.
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