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The Man Who Survives Without Money

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby pup55 » Thu 30 Jul 2009, 18:32:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o, he's a pirate, a thief, an insurrectionist, outlaw, and rebel scum


You're forgetting "schizophrenic, with social anxiety disorder and/or some other type of thought disorder"....

I suppose one man's "ascetic lifestyle" is another's mental illness.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 30 Jul 2009, 18:40:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o, he's a pirate, a thief, an insurrectionist, outlaw, and rebel scum


You're forgetting "schizophrenic, with social anxiety disorder and/or some other type of thought disorder"....

I suppose one man's "ascetic lifestyle" is another's mental illness.


Or maybe your afraid, faced with these living conditions that you would become schizophrenic, with social anxiety disorder and/or some other type of thought disorder"..... :P

Maybe he's found the Keys to the Kingdom? The door to the other side, the side we all fear. :idea:
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby Narz » Fri 31 Jul 2009, 01:08:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ses less calories for his life? No, everyone needs to use a certain minimum of calories in order to survive.

He's using calories that would otherwise be wasted.


That may be true but it's also true that someone used resources, somewhere, in order to package & distribute those calories.

So what? If they'd otherwise be wasted his footprint is near zero. If he died tomorrow & the cans ended up in a dumpster or landfill instead of his belly what would be the difference?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'F')rankly, I'm puzzled by the lack of comprehension of this issue. Everyone on this board (except for some of the cornucopians) understand that there's no such thing as a "free lunch" when it comes to resources. Yet, everyone's jumping up and acting as if this guy has found some magic way to have a free lunch because he appears to (yet does not) reject society & its trappings.

I don't see anyone doing that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'I')'m starting to think that support for the idea of Peak Oil, at least by some of the posters on this board, is less about looking at a real problem and more about pushing an antisocial agenda.

I'm starting to think you arguing so much is just you being anti-social. :P
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Fri 31 Jul 2009, 09:49:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')So what? If they'd otherwise be wasted his footprint is near zero. If he died tomorrow & the cans ended up in a dumpster or landfill instead of his belly what would be the difference?


That's not the point. The point is that the guy doest not have this moneyless survival - he's simply using someone else's money. It makes no difference if the money would otherwise be wasted. I have already stated that I'm glad that someone's able to make use of items instead of them going to waste. That is a completely different issue from whether or not it took any money to survive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't see anyone doing that.


Of course you don't because you're doing it. You're arguing a sideshow. You say his footprint is "near zero". No, his footprint is less than someone actively participating in a Western consumer society but it's a far cry from zero. Do you believe that there's a such thing as a free lunch? In essence that's what you're arguing - that this guy has discovered the secret to a free lunch. That's an odd position for people who subscribe to the idea of peak oil, diminishing EROEI returns, and the like.

As for being antisocial, I like plenty of people. But I'm beginning to get the feeling that peak oil, for a lot of people, is simply a cover for promoting a utopian ideal of everyone going Swiss Family Robinson. That's fine, if that's what you want, but be honest about the end game. This guy uses resources, period. I don't care if he uses less than someone driving around in a car and watching TV. I also don't care if he wants to live this lifestyle, but leave the moral lesson out of it. He's no better or worse than anyone else.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 03 Aug 2009, 23:58:02

in india, ~2500 years ago this wouldn't make it to any type of social discussion.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby ClassicSpiderman » Tue 04 Aug 2009, 11:18:26

Reminds me of the following:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')railers for sale or rent
Rooms to let...fifty cents.
No phone, no pool, no pets
I ain't got no cigarettes
Ah, but..two hours of pushin' broom
Buys an eight by twelve four-bit room
I'm a man of means by no means
King of the road.

Third boxcar, midnight train
Destination...Bangor, Maine.
Old worn out suits and shoes,
I don't pay no union dues,
I smoke old stogies I have found
Short, but not too big around
I'm a man of means by no means
King of the road.


Except for the part about "two hours of pushin' broom", he is the epitomy of that song.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby ClassicSpiderman » Tue 04 Aug 2009, 11:36:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'N')o he doesn't. If he didn't exist at all, the "party", as it were, would be better off, as there would be collectively less consumption. He uses electricity, oil, natural resources, and everything else just like everyone else. The clothes he wears were produced using these things. The food he scrounges was produced using these things. The library where he communicates with the misguided world was built and is operated with these things. In short, he's parasitic to society.

Now, I don't have any problem with his parasitic existence - as a matter of fact, parasites are often healthy parts of ecosystems. I think it's great that someone can make use of excessive products and waste. My only problem with this guy's story is the moralistic viewpoint that he's somehow better than everyone else because he's living the simple life.


That may be true, but I say let him pontificate and be moralistic about his lifestyle, even if he fails to see the paradox of it all. I feel the same way about people who are mortgaged to the hilt with 4 maxed-out credit cards--my relatively debt free lifestyle means that I have an 800+ credit rating with a bank account that has no service charges, and every time I spend on my credit card means I get bonus points to get free stuff like free plane rides, gift cards, and the like.

In a way, I banks and credit card companies subsidize me while they charge late fees, interest and service charges to the guy who's in debt and he's the good little consumer unit who keeps the economy going by indebting himself. My free airfare is being paid for by these sheeple, and I say who am I to tell them to embrace a lifestyle of little to no debt? If everybody did that, then I wouldn't be getting all of this nice free stuff.

As for the hobo in question--I admire and even envy him a little bit. But I like having toilet paper, flush toilets, plumbing, a gym and all sorts of other good stuff that makes my life easy and comfortable.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Tue 04 Aug 2009, 23:08:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClassicSpiderman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'N')o he doesn't. If he didn't exist at all, the "party", as it were, would be better off, as there would be collectively less consumption. He uses electricity, oil, natural resources, and everything else just like everyone else. The clothes he wears were produced using these things. The food he scrounges was produced using these things. The library where he communicates with the misguided world was built and is operated with these things. In short, he's parasitic to society.

Now, I don't have any problem with his parasitic existence - as a matter of fact, parasites are often healthy parts of ecosystems. I think it's great that someone can make use of excessive products and waste. My only problem with this guy's story is the moralistic viewpoint that he's somehow better than everyone else because he's living the simple life.


That may be true, but I say let him pontificate and be moralistic about his lifestyle, even if he fails to see the paradox of it all. I feel the same way about people who are mortgaged to the hilt with 4 maxed-out credit cards--my relatively debt free lifestyle means that I have an 800+ credit rating with a bank account that has no service charges, and every time I spend on my credit card means I get bonus points to get free stuff like free plane rides, gift cards, and the like.

In a way, I banks and credit card companies subsidize me while they charge late fees, interest and service charges to the guy who's in debt and he's the good little consumer unit who keeps the economy going by indebting himself. My free airfare is being paid for by these sheeple, and I say who am I to tell them to embrace a lifestyle of little to no debt? If everybody did that, then I wouldn't be getting all of this nice free stuff.

As for the hobo in question--I admire and even envy him a little bit. But I like having toilet paper, flush toilets, plumbing, a gym and all sorts of other good stuff that makes my life easy and comfortable.


Excellent post, +1. I've said this myself for years. It's the same scenario, only looking the other way - pointing in disgust at the people who max themselves to the hilt, buying all kinds of stuff they "don't need" - yet that "stuff" is someone's job, and all that "waste" is an economy. While I wouldn't do it, there's no question I benefit from the multitudes that do, because without them there would be a lot fewer jobs, hence a smaller economy, and lots of us might not have jobs at all. I don't moralize about those people either (though I personally think it's foolish to live that way).
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby Auntie_Cipation » Wed 05 Aug 2009, 01:22:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClassicSpiderman', 'A')s for the hobo in question--I admire and even envy him a little bit. But I like having toilet paper, flush toilets, plumbing, a gym and all sorts of other good stuff that makes my life easy and comfortable.


Yeah, the age of cheap oil and growth capitalism produced lots of creature comforts for the [relatively] wealthy of the planet (ie all of us who have things like refrigeration, fresh fruit in the off-season, personal automobiles and computers, and more than three or four changes of clothing for each season), and who could blame any of us for 'liking' those comforts? (That's why they call them 'comforts', duh.)

However.

When one considers the harm that is being done by the creation and maintenance of those comforts --

harm that ranges from -- to use your flush toilet example -- water pollution and loss of soil nutrients (both effects of flushing our bodily wastes into our clean water system)

to social justice issues such as child labor, sweathouses, farmworkers being unwittingly exposed to toxins being used as pesticides/herbicides,

and when one further considers that the cheap oil era which allowed [some of] us to have these things at such miniscule cost in the first place is a finite and unsustainable system which happens to be reaching its apogee and is thence on its way out in any case --

Well, when all those things are factored in, it just seems unfathomably, abominably, disgustingly greedy, selfish, and unethical (not to mention stupid in the sense of not giving oneself a chance to adapt and adjust on a somewhat comfortable timeline) to allow our 'like' of those things to actually decide whether we resist powerdown versus welcome it and encourage it to come ASAP.
"... among the ways available in which a man can die, it is a rare and signal distinction to be killed by a leopard."

-- Raymond Dasmann
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