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The Man Who Survives Without Money

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 22 Jul 2009, 21:47:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'Y')ou're just kicking the guy in the balls because you can. He's poor, he's a bum, so its okay to judge him. He isn't providing back to "society" because society, in his view, doesn't provide; it takes. He's an honest parasite, which is heresy in modern conventional terms.
No, if I'm "kicking him in the balls" for anything it's his hypocrisy. He criticizes society for the very same things he partakes of himself. He doesn't want to contribute to society, but he wants to take from society. He rejects only those notions that don't have immediate value to him while embracing those that do have value to him. Everyone else does the same thing, only what they value and he values are reversed. That's why he's able to survive such a lifestyle. I *doubt* this man survives in the Moab on grasshoppers and roots if everything else goes belly-up. Frankly, it's a cop-out to hole up in a cave and lament on all the ills of society. Get up off your Expletive deleted. and do something about it. His approach is, as George Carlin would say, one big stroke job - he's stroking himself and complaining about the guy stroking himself next door. It certainly is American, that's for sure :-D
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he article describes a true scavenger lifestyle. You're misattributing the retrieval of garbage to a selfish impulse.

I have nothing against a scavenger lifestyle. I think it's great that someone can use the ridiculous amounts of waste we construct. But get off your high-horse and quit moralizing about it. I don't judge the guy on the street pushing a shopping cart or begging because, frankly, I don't give a Expletive deleted. what he does. If that's his thing, and he isn't hurting me, more power to you.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen we want to insult someone we tell them to "Eat Expletive deleted.", right? This reflects the experience of humiliation. Recall the opposite of humility: Pride. To eat "Expletive deleted." means being culturally denatured. Notice how tightly human cultures are bound to certain foods. It is not surprising that murder suspect Tremayne Durham traded freedom for KFC (http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=72303). Look what we're trading for ground beef: the climate, the soil base, etc.! Take away someone's traditional cultural foods and you have one depressed human being with a profound existential dilemma. This is why no amount of agitation will remove the high fructose corn syrup and beef from American hands. Not now, not ever, unless you're willing to rewire brains wholesale.
No disagreement there. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') went to a bluegrass festival recently. These are de facto deadheads: capitalists clinging to the remnants of a gypsy fantasy fueled by gasoline and german automobiles. I actually informed one woman at the Porta-Toilets that soap and water are indeed the magical combination which kills and removes bacteria. Is the authentic appearance of neolithic lifestyle is a flagrant insult to those without the skill or brains to devolve properly? Self-abnegation is an art form- it is not available to the masses where the mean I.Q. is 100.

In deadheads, cultural rebellion is a fashion sense, a taste, or a lifestyle for the weekend. A bunch of people hanging around, drinking beer, smoking weed, barbecuing and listening to country music is not really a separate paradigm from the mainstream. "All we are are dust in the wind" is just a slogan. The reality is that they have health insurance policies and rely on civilization for everything except entertainment.
No argument from me.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I don't think caveman will feel Peak Oil or Economic Crisis. He will go from canned tuna and roadkill to roots, tubers, and rabbits, probably happy as a clam. There are many on PO.com that should be beating a path to his blog to try and learn something.

Expletive deleted. . Everyone will feel peak oil or economic crisis. What's he going to catch rabbits with? Homemade bow & arrow? Think he'd fend off the other zombies looking for rabbits? No, caveman will suffer just like everyone else. It's imaginary Expletive deleted. to be writing a blog about surviving "off the grid" so to speak while you're enjoying the grid courtesy of your fellow man. It's no different than the hardcore doomers here that think they're going to hole up in their fortress and thrive while society melts down around them. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '-')This is the rhetorical device: misappropriate fact, then use that assumption as a basis for criticism. He's obviously living without money, not "making" the living, but just "living". Why does he go into town to use a computer, read books and talk to people? Because his humanity demands the communion of socializing... with his people. Namely, us. Not Indians or Ecuadorans.
Wrong. He's living with money, just not his own.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 23 Jul 2009, 01:25:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
') He's living with money, just not his own.


How true. He's living off my money and yours. Not much, mind you, but someone paid for the rice, beans, computer, and the ac in that library. And his tp, soap, toothbrush, clothes and what not.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 23 Jul 2009, 07:33:45

This story only draws attention because the guy is American and lives in a cave. There are millions of less clever or fortunate bums within the good ol'e USA, just as deserving of what you will: contempt/ envy/ intrigue.
I lived in a not too dissimilar fashion with a bicycle and camping set up for several years; it did me no harm.
It is good to learn to live with less; given we may all end up with not much of anything. To each Buddha his/her own Darma,; there is no crime in withdrawing from the world.
To those getting nasty with this guy; why not go down the street where you live and pick an argument about ethics with the cardboard box people under the bridge?
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Thu 23 Jul 2009, 10:23:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'j')dmartin he uses up less stuff than you. He drives less than you. He eats less than you (remember, he does nothing). So his footprint is smaller and by any measure, he is better for the planet and the human race than you. He will prolong our party.


No he doesn't. If he didn't exist at all, the "party", as it were, would be better off, as there would be collectively less consumption. He uses electricity, oil, natural resources, and everything else just like everyone else. The clothes he wears were produced using these things. The food he scrounges was produced using these things. The library where he communicates with the misguided world was built and is operated with these things. In short, he's parasitic to society.

Now, I don't have any problem with his parasitic existence - as a matter of fact, parasites are often healthy parts of ecosystems. I think it's great that someone can make use of excessive products and waste. My only problem with this guy's story is the moralistic viewpoint that he's somehow better than everyone else because he's living the simple life. Please. :roll: He's only able to exist in this fashion because he consumes the excesses of the masses. Instead of being scornful of that society, he should be grateful for its assistance in allowing him to live the life he wants. He didn't want to be the caveman in India because everyone was doing it, he wanted to do it where there was lots of wealth to prove a point? Please. If I had to guess, I'd say he found that starving to death in a 3rd world country was less glamorous than living off the backs of the Americans he finds so distasteful.

This point of view makes me laugh. It's like the people that point and laugh at all the stupid people who overconsume without considering that their very job depends on all that waste.

Bottom line: I don't have any problem with the existence. I say more power to the guy. If it makes him happy, and he's not hurting anyone else, he should absolutely go for it. But leave the moral message and judgement out of it. I'm not the least bit impressed that someone can survive by scrounging for goods in the United States. :roll:
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Thu 23 Jul 2009, 10:28:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
') He's living with money, just not his own.


How true. He's living off my money and yours. Not much, mind you, but someone paid for the rice, beans, computer, and the ac in that library. And his tp, soap, toothbrush, clothes and what not.


Exactly my point. I don't disparage the guy because he's able to do it, because I think there's (at least right now) plenty of excess for scroungers etc. to consume. I dislike the moral high ground that's attempted to be taken on this issue. I believe in reducing one's footprint. I've become more self-sufficient in growing food, can fix almost any piece of machinery that exists, have learned about basic medicine, etc. But that doesn't make me any better than the guy that hasn't, maybe only slightly more prepared for bad times. I certainly don't look down my nose at the people around me that have given me the opportunity to get to that point in whatever capacity - by continuing to work to keep society and my paycheck going, for example.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 23 Jul 2009, 10:34:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')size=150]In old age, he should renounce everything[/size] and prepare himself for the afterlife and the next birth. The Purusharthas are the four chief aims of human life, namely virtue, wealth, sensuous desires and salvation. It is believed that pursuit of these four aims would enable a person to experience life in all its diversity and complexity and achieve salvation through one's good deeds, commitment to Dharma and the grace of God.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/divinelaws2.asp

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')any religious practices and rites of passage are aimed at liberation. Particularly relevant are those designed to remove our attachment to this world and its transient pleasures. Renunciation, especially in old age, is an important feature of Hinduism. Without conquering qualities such as lust, anger and greed, and without control of the mind and senses, there is no question of being liberated from the entanglement of the material world.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 00:39:44

For a human to live, he has to consume some food, some water. My friend use to say Yamishita (?) could walk across sand without leaving footprints and me and my other friends would say Expletive deleted.! This guy just has a smaller footprint then most of us, especially me, when i drive around because i'm bored/want to listen to the Brewers in peace.

#WIFE AND KIDS are huge problems, I mean blessings that this Expletive deleted. doesn't need have deal with. I envy him for his lack of "stuff"...

EDIT: Isn't cheap oil/energy supporting this guys lifestyle?
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 02:17:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'F')or a human to live, he has to consume some food, some water. Isn't cheap oil/energy supporting this guys lifestyle?
Costly energy will definitely hurt people like this. But there have always been some who lived on as little as possible. India comes to mind. Sri Lanka, Thailand, Tibet and elsewhere.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby Narz » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 03:07:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
') He's living with money, just not his own.


How true. He's living off my money and yours. Not much, mind you, but someone paid for the rice, beans, computer, and the ac in that library. And his tp, soap, toothbrush, clothes and what not.

All that stuff would exist whether he did or not, the library, the wasted food. Maybe he uses a few extra watts posting his blog that would otherwise not be used as the computer lay dormant (likely someone else'd be watching YouTubes & be consuming just as much though).

The guy isn't a parasite, he's a scavenger. Taking cans of beans that would otherwise end up in landfills & turning them into compost nourishing the poor Utah soil.

If you're gonna call him names may as well call everyoine who utilizes their public library a parasite. As well as anyone who works for the library.

The word parasite is almost always a loaded word, used by people who like to pretend it isn't.

The guy's got a right to his opinion. He's not trying to be "holier than thou", he just doesn't want to participate. Unfortunately non-participation is pretty much impossible (man is a social animal & no one man is gonna survive alone in the wild for long) so he's doing what he deems the next best thing. In my eyes he's got nothing to be ashamed of & certainly doesn't deserve derision.

The statement is true - He is not using money. Not his own, not other people's. He's using goods & services that exist free for the taking but he's not using money.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 03:27:58

I didn't call him names Narz. Nor did jd.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby Blacksmith » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 03:41:08

I have to ask myself is it wrong to survive on what other throw away.

And what would happen to these disregards otherwise?
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 03:44:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'I') have to ask myself is it wrong to survive on what other throw away.

And what would happen to these disregards otherwise?


Of course it's not wrong. I think it's great. The ultimate recycler, in fact.

They would mostly decompose in dumps including the clothes, food scraps and the rest of it too. But someone paid for all those scraps of stored energy. With money.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Tue 28 Jul 2009, 00:35:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Wrong. He's living with money, just not his own.


Whose money then? I don't see the connection. He "had" money at one point, sure. But now?

As an anthropologist, he no doubt studied all the relevant parameters of a stone-age existence. He saw that he could live a stone-age lifestyle augmented by a few modern conveniences to make life easier. His iron skillet will never wear out. He can dumpster food and clothing. But, even if those things weren't around, he knows by education that he can make a fire drill, make animal calls, make snares, prepare hides, craft weapons, and find water, then he's covered the bases. Within that skillset you have sustainability... with the added asset of being able to fully cross over when appendicitis hits. Perhaps he will trade rabbit skins for this service.

My question is, how far outside the mainstream does one have to go to not be considered a parasite in your definition? Or are we all parasites- if so is he not on the lower end of the parasitism scale?
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 29 Jul 2009, 21:41:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou did not understand my point. He is one more human, like you and me, to power and feed from earth's limited store. But he uses less calories for his life. What do you not understand?


Uses less calories for his life? No, everyone needs to use a certain minimum of calories in order to survive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou continue to have it bass-ackwards. He is less of a parasite then you or me. You believe you frantic race for wealth and security is somehow a positive contribution to the human race? That is wrong. We all are hell bent on using up the one-time fossil fuel and soil nutrient reserves that were built up over billions of years. He is just doing with less.


Again, no he's not. He's using someone else's efforts. He's using the same fossil fuels, only indirectly, since he depends on someone else using those efforts in order to provide his sustenance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') doubt he is moralizing. You are. You think you are better than him because you have nice clothes, a car, a fancy computer and YOU USE UP ELECTRICITY AND FUEL. You have it backwards.


I don't think I'm better than anyone, least matter because I have any of those things. He thinks he's better than the rest of society and he's got the story to prove it. You also think he's better for some warped reason. Sorry, he's no better or worse than anyone else.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby Narz » Wed 29 Jul 2009, 23:39:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ses less calories for his life? No, everyone needs to use a certain minimum of calories in order to survive.

He's using calories that would otherwise be wasted.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby jdmartin » Thu 30 Jul 2009, 09:31:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ses less calories for his life? No, everyone needs to use a certain minimum of calories in order to survive.

He's using calories that would otherwise be wasted.


That may be true but it's also true that someone used resources, somewhere, in order to package & distribute those calories.

Frankly, I'm puzzled by the lack of comprehension of this issue. Everyone on this board (except for some of the cornucopians) understand that there's no such thing as a "free lunch" when it comes to resources. Yet, everyone's jumping up and acting as if this guy has found some magic way to have a free lunch because he appears to (yet does not) reject society & its trappings.

I'm starting to think that support for the idea of Peak Oil, at least by some of the posters on this board, is less about looking at a real problem and more about pushing an antisocial agenda.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby pup55 » Thu 30 Jul 2009, 11:39:27

So many questions:

a. How does the U of C Alumni Association track him down for a donation? Secondly, would the U of C be proud of this illustrious alum.

b. This guy is obviously not a chick magnet. Do you think the "smell" has anything to do with it?

c. I am not going to get into the argument of whether he is more or less parasitic than the normal PO.com viewer except to ask the following question: If oilmageddon hit, would there be more people like him, or fewer? I believe, as a proportion of the population, the fraction would be exactly the same. Reason: He has found himself a niche, where he can make his skill set, such as it is, work for him. This lifestyle would not support more than a few others, and needless to say, if some guy moved into the cave next door to him, there would instantly be a hierarchy developed: who is the better ascetic.....

People have lived in cities and in small communities for a long time because it works as a survival strategy. I am sure there were always people like this too, that kind of lived at the edge.

d. Whose land is this guy living on, and why have they not tracked him down and insisted on some rent and/or taxes.

e. What happens when he gets to be 70 and does not feel like walking down to town every day.
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Re: The Man Who Survives Without Money

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Thu 30 Jul 2009, 14:10:07

The idea of a man living off the land, without a country, is what is antithetical to civilization and the civilized. Coming upon the Indians, the American settlers immediately declared these people to be parasites, illegally using the resources of the state, and advocated their removal. Sound familiar?

I would argue that what is playing out in the anthropologist's life and this thread is simply an echo of that conflict. He is an indian, aboriginal and strange, and we are technologists who reject the idea of nature, wild and free. He has rejected society, modern culture, fear of isolation, death, and starvation. He rejects the shame projected on him from our modern cultural value system.

Therefore, he must be taxed, billed, restrained, brought to justice, rehabilitated, and must pay restitution. Otherwise, the moral hazard of his lifestyle is a threat to the inviolate precepts of modern society. Nevermind that he obviously does not contribute to the deterioration of roadways, public health insurance, or social services. What he will do under duress (medical services) is speculative at best.

So, he's a pirate, a thief, an insurrectionist, outlaw, and rebel scum. He has crossed over to the other side. In other words, he is Tutonka-o-wobachi, right? What does that make us moderns? General Custers? Janet Renos?

An educated bum is above all else an insult to the values of the country.
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