[vision-master]

Snowball to hell.....

[frankthetank]

We are all going to hell. You can't live in this country and not be guilty!!!!

[ki11ercane]

In a word, do not do it. Been there, done that. Lost my money. Created a rift between my wife and I that we had to work out years later.

Consider these little morsels of advice no matter what you decide:

1. If you give your father the money without any contract of any kind or link to a tangeable asset, expect it not to come back, period. Family or not, he is under no obligation to return the funds, and he can use any excuse "including" being your father to reneg, and your phucked. Friendship ends where business starts. This includes family too.

2. Taking "your" money out to lend him money is not advisible. You're reducing your liquidity, probably forever. This is not a good time in history to be doing that. Taking the money out of your investment account is a bad idea. Your husband "worked" to earn that money so your literally giving away his sweat equity, not his money. This will create a rift between you later in your marriage. TRUST ME, IT WILL CREATE A RIFT! DON'T LET YOUR HUSBANDS "FEAR" (that's what his anger is, FEAR) OF SAYING NO TO HIS DAD DEFEAT YOU ON THIS. YOUR HUSBAND IS NOT SEEING THE FOREST FOR THE TREES. ONE OF YOU HAS TO BE THE VOICE OF REASON. CAVING IN SILENCES YOURS.

3. Coming off #2, if you do decide to lend him money and you have a line of credit, borrow it from there. Charge him 3-5% over your interest rate on a 30 day cycle. So for example if you borrow $5000.00 to him for one year and the interest is 5%, charge him 8-10% on the loan, monthly, compounded over 365 days. That means you're getting money back from him every 30 days, not at once, and you're making money on your money. DON'T FEEL GUILTY DOING THIS! Your dad felt no guilt asking for the money. If he wants it, he'll do what is necessary to get it.This also means you will need a payment instrument. Sorry to snicker but I know Americans love checks, so get 12 post dated checks. Figure out the interest, and tell him how much they have to be. Get them in advance.

4. You mentioned the siblings. Then your dad should be calling all the siblings and asking for their share. If there is three kids, divide it by three. If all are not board, you have external proof this is a bad deal.

Overall, I still say "don't lend him the money." If you do, say goodbye to it. I leant my father $6000.00 over 5 years ago and I still haven't seen it come back. Not even $100.00. And last year my dad did an extensive reno of the house to pay back some of the money. Even after the deal was done, he still demanded payment. I told him "sorry, you owe me money. Consider this work as an interest free payoff." I already dealt with the grief of not getting back initially, so I had no problem with the fallout here.

And yes, my wife and I had to hash out lending my dad money several years later. It was a major sore point in our relationship.

[heroineworshipper]

Welcome to marriage.

[blukatzen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heroineworshipper', 'W')elcome to marriage.

[Umber]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlexdeLarge', 'Y')ou can't lend what you don't have, so he should understand. You would think he could get a credit card with a 5K limit.

He is family, and if he is good to his word and you trust him, help if you can. I would assume he would do it for you. But only if you can afford it.

Times are getting tough, and will be getting tougher........family is sometimes the only thing you can count on.

[RonMN]

As mentioned already...come up with an amount that you can afford to LOSE (say $500 or $1000). And say "I hope this helps, but it's all I can swing right now".

Then NEVER mention it again. If his dad brings it up, just say "oh, I forgot about that" and change the subject. There is no better way to destroy a relationship then to lend money.

[ki11ercane]

If the degree of separation between marriage and divorce is 0* is a "great solid marriage" and 180* is divorce, this will definitely move the needle in the direction towards 180*. I cannot stress that enough.

Again, been there, done that. I have been to the precipice. I got there partially because of lending my father money. It wasn't the "money," it was the stress we both felt doing it, the feeling of guilt of saying no, indifference on my part for not listening to my wife, and her dismissing me over it because of her anger and pain the situation caused. Already you're arguing with your husband over considering it. It won't get better "after" you do it, and insanity may ensue if he doesn't pay it back. While this situation has about 95% more we don't know about, for the 5% you have mentioned, it's not going to end good.

I'm 36 years young, married for almost ten years. I am young, but I have some experience on the marriage front, and mistakes "I" made, and lending my dad money was a MARRIAGE MISTAKE.

[Geodesic]

Give what you can afford to lose and no more. Let me tell you from personal experience people have a lot easier time taking money than giving it back. I'm suing my "friend" who promised to repay a $10k loan asap 14 months ago. I felt sorry for her because she was so distraught about some stupid real estate deal. When people find out you have money It's amazing how many simply must some or they will, a. die, b. lose their house, c. lose their car, d. lose their spouse, e. lose their mind, f, g, h, i...z.

[Pretorian]

A classmate of mine did a lot of borrowings in 90s. He showed himself as a tip-top accurate payer, and loads of people were eager to give him money as typical interest rate was around 10% per month over there ( in USD). So he end up owing around 300K in the end, it was really a nice amount of money at the time. So when his buble bursted he was found a few weeks later chained to the piping in one basement, he was tortured until dead. Considering that he was only 20 or 21 yo atm, his heart could take quite a bit before it gave up I'm sure. But it wasnt enough obviously, so they took his mother's condo too.

More to the topic-- if you want to have an enemy loan some money to your friend.

[IgnoranceIsBliss]

Well, most of this advice is just what I thought it would be. Unfortunately, I feel like I really cannot say no in this situation without all hell freezing over here on the homefront. (so now I'm the bad guy if I even wanted to say no. This mess is 100% the result of poor planning and procrastination, see below, not some unforeseen hardship, which makes me really mad)

My husband called his dad again and here's what we know:

1) FIL (father in law) started a dental practice 30+ years ago and took on several partners over the years. For some reason, the partnership agreement called for mandatory retirement at age 65.

2) FIL turned 65 two years ago, and has been living on savings (?) plus his wife's income since then.

3) Meanwhile, bill collectors have been calling us trying to find FIL for about 6 months now.

4) My husband's step sister also lives with them (age 32- major leech, but she does have a job)

5) I'm pretty sure FIL has not called my husband's 2 sisters asking them for money. Husband says he doesn't want to get his sisters involved and won't even tell them about his dad asking us for money.

6) FIL still has a mortgage on the house (has lived there just about 30 years) and recently had his POS GM SUV break down to the tune of $5,000 (power steering and tranny went out at about 60k miles)

7) FIL recently took over a dental practice where the prior doctor died. Is building patient base but setting up insurance billing agreements is taking a lot of time. Meanwhile, cash flow is crap. Has a good deal of money owed to him which should be paid once patient insurance companies start paying. (why did he have to start from scratch with insurance? Shouldn't that have already been set up? I know he had to pay money to get into this deal. I'm worried he's sinking money into a losing proposition.)

FIL has never been a "big spender". Has not wasted money on women, cars, booze, vacations, gambling, etc.

9) Since bill collectors have been calling us, I assume he has NO other options for money (like a bank loan, credit card, etc) Not sure about a HELOC, maybe that is already done and maxed? I do, however, think he couid call his two daughers and probably his sister as well.

10) FIL says he should be able to pay us in Sept or Oct when the insurance companies pay out (sounds like California to me)

(11) My husband told his dad that he should sell the house and downsize. He has to commute 2+ hours a day to the new job, and their property taxes alone are $8k in NJ, plus they are not maintaining the home in any way. But of course, he says values are down, etc. (and selling would involve addressing the issue of the 30+ year old step-daughter and where would she live)

Anyway, like everyone said, this is causing a problem in our marriage already. (we've only been married for 5 years and have two boys, ages 3 and 11 months). I really feel put out that we are being asked for $5,000. I mean, WTF? If FIL knew he was out of work at 65, what has he been doing for the last 2 years? Why should we bail him out for his poor planning? What is to say that this dental practice will make it? (right now is only open for 2.5 days while they build up clients)

Meanwhile, we are on ONE income because I'm a stay at home mom (as much my husband's idea as mine). We don't make much money at all for a family of 4.
It's even more complicated because we can't afford to give FIL money from our bank account, so we have to take it out of our stock investments, which is 100% money that my parents gave us 2 years ago! My husband managed to lose most of it but we recently made it back, so now we are about even with what they gave us.

It comes down to the fact that my husband feels obligated to loan his father the money because "he's my dad! I can't say no." FIL did give my husband $5k to put down when he bought his first house, but that was before I even met my husband. We offered to pay it back in 2006 when we sold that house, but he said no, it was a gift. He says his dad gave him money here and there ($300) during college and paid for 1 or 2 years of college.

My husband says he would never make his dad sign a note or charge him interest because that would be "treating him like a child." (Duh, and he NEEDS that!)

So I have agreed (like I had a ****ing choice) to "loan" him $5,000. I mentioned to my husband that many wives would not be so agreeable. His relpy was "Yeah, and those are f***ing bitches"

YIKES. YIKES. YIKES. That last remark did not sit well with me.

So I hope we get the money back in a few months, but am going into this with the expectation what we won't. (I mean if you've dug a hole so deep, how are you going to get out?)

As far as my husband's job, he's a teacher, so it's fairly stable, BUT they did just cut 100 teachers here and he's only been working in this district for 2 years! (no "tenure") We are also getting a 3% pay cut this year. If the budget gets worse, who knows if he will have a job next year. I was also a teacher, so it's not like I can go get a job because there are NONE and we would have to pay for daycare x 2.

I'm just really mad that:
(1) we are being asked to help because we don't have much money ourselves (*the only reason we have money in the bank now is because of the stimulus payment and we cashed out an annuity) The money we are lending is our emergency fund, but my husband doesn't see it this way and is sooooo sure his dad will pay us back.
(2) FIL's situation is entirely due to his poor planning
(3) no one else is being asked to help (that we know of and husband won't ask to find out)
(4) husband would give me major grief if I were to say no & I would have to live with that tension (like we don't have enough already!)

I guess I will let you all know how this ends up! (stay tuned)

[Ferretlover]

There are businesses that can help consoldate loans, payments, etc. Or, offer to chip in -direct payment-to a bankruptcy lawyer.
Not only will you never see that money again, when, as fewer and fewer people can actually afford a dentist, your f-i-l will lose his business and they will want to move in with you. You, who having "loaned" that money, will not only never see it again, but, in a short while your own family will be in financial straits with no help, and additional mouths to feed and house.
But, it is up to you and your husband.
Just my 3 cents.

[evilgenius]

Jesus, I am living on savings, working part-time and going to school. I live in fear of a situation arising where
my savings just goes away. I would not be able to graduate. I would have to live hand to mouth.

My low rent apartment would be the only thing between me and the street. I already cut corners with food. Maybe I would go hungry. Maybe I would wind up on the street.

I need to finish school. I am middle-aged now and don't have many more chances to get this right. For the first time in my life I can see a way to make better money. I can see a way, also, to work into my old age at something, info systems, that won't be so onerous as to wear me out and kill me. I could not sacrifice what I could potentially have in order to loan money to someone else, no matter how close they are, unless doing so wouldn't threaten what I have going on.

If I was in your situation I would find it hard to know what to do. I do believe in family first. It sounds like the old boy probably will be able to make a go of it. Given the probability that he will you will most likely get your money back. In that case the thing you are really talking about is losing the opportunity cost that investing the money would have brought.

There won't be much collateral you can get I suppose. What can you do with a dentist's equipment if you aren't a dentist? Also, his father is too old to take a life insurance policy out on him in case he should die and leave the debt unpaid. I feel for you taking such a big risk.

Good Luck

[IgnoranceIsBliss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'T')here are businesses that can help consoldate loans, payments, etc. Or, offer to chip in -direct payment-to a bankruptcy lawyer.
Not only will you never see that money again, when, as fewer and fewer people can actually afford a dentist, your f-i-l will loss his business and they will want to move in with you. You, who having "loaned" that money, will not only never see it again, but, in a short while your own family will be in financial straits with no help, and additional mouths to feed and house.
But, it is up to you and your husband.
Just my 3 cents.

[evilgenius]

Oh, yeah, ask the old boy if there is any way he can advertise cut rate work. If he isn't doing any work for much of the time, and if doing work that brings little return won't kill him both in terms of extra hours worked and supplies used, he ought to get on it. I don't get much dental work done, but if I could go to somebody I could trust (which begs the question: is he somebody people think they can trust?) for say 1/3 of what it would usually cost I might do it.

[RonMN]

This will continue to happen as the economy worsens. Family & friends will keep asking for money/food/etc. You may want to broach this subject with hubby.

I have now been unemployed for almost a year. I've had 4 people ask me if I would take their dogs, several ask me for loans & even 1 friend ask me if I would raise 1 of his children They all know I'm unemployed & they don't care...They only care about THEIR problems.

Let me tell you a little story. About 6 months ago one of my friends asked me if I would take his dog, he couldn't afford him any more. I know this guy enjoys a vacation or 2 to some place warm every year. I said to him "have you crunched the numbers on skipping the annual vacation in order to keep your dog?".

He became almost livid & said he would NEVER give up his vacation...I said "well, when your basking in the sunshine & watching the bikinis...tell y'rself...this vacation is what has cost my dog his life".

What he's doing (in a round-about way) is asking me to pay for his F***ing vacation!

[frankthetank]

Really.. Shouldn't this guy be a millionaire? I mean a dentist? They easily have to make $100K+ a year... His house should have been paid off 25 years ago. The guy should be rolling in it.

Something to this story doesn't add up... A LOT OF MONEY HAS GONE SOMEWHERE...

Get him to sign a paper saying he'll pay you back. We just did it to my brother in law on an old junker we sold him.... Took a whole 2 minutes.

Judy likes stuff in writing.

[neocone]

A simple rule is this: Never ever lend money that you wouldn't give away anyways.

A friend of mine asked for 10k once... I said no... we are still best friends.

A woman I date asked me to buy her a 5k used car, I said no... we are still dating.

NO is a liberating concept...

[Plantagenet]

Let me tell a sleazy-relative-stealing-money story.

My girl-friend's sister called saying she desperately needed money or she would lose her house.

My girlfriend said she would help her, but she wouldn't sign any contracts (based on a prior scam her relatives had run involving a contract). The relative said OK, no contracts, but help help help.

Then I went on a trip. When I got back, my girlfriend had, of course, signed another legal contract obligating her pay her sister's property taxes, legal fees, accountant fees etc. Her sister's lawyer had fraudulently sworn that the only way to help her sister keep her house was to sign this contract----"It was absolutely required by law."

So she only wanted to help her sister, but once trapped in the contract she had to pay $5000 to her sister to get out the fraud

----------

NEVER LEND MONEY AND NEVER SIGN FINANCIAL CONTRACTS WITH RELATIVES.

[AlexdeLarge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'R')eally.. Shouldn't this guy be a millionaire? I mean a dentist? They easily have to make $100K+ a year... His house should have been paid off 25 years ago.