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THE Stephen Hawking Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby mark » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 08:51:43

As we each have a spark of the infinite within our minds, there can be no limits, save those self-imposed.
Who is John Galt?
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Concerned » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 15:20:54

Wisdom is the limit of intelligence. Our ape primal genetic code limits both.

CDO's and all those fancy derivatives and insurance swaps. How clever :)

How much brain power and human labor goes into creating advanced clubs and shields? about $1,100,000,000,000 EVERY YEAR (1.1 trillion)

Still adding tens of millions in global population on a finite planet.

I could go on but....

Yep "no limit" to intelligence :roll:
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 16:10:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'H')ooey :)


Fooey on your hooey.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Duare » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 16:35:52

Does, or can, Hawking explain how all that information was first programed into our DNA? That seems to me to be a question that ought to be answered before he can assume we are happily onto the next stage.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Windmills » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 16:40:13

What is this novel and ubiquitous method of altering the DNA of our offspring? I'm not sure that I understand what Hawking is proposing. It still seems that the vast majority of people around the world are still using old fashioned sex to reproduce, which means there's nothing new about our evolution.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Grautr » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 16:52:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', 'W')hat is this novel and ubiquitous method of altering the DNA of our offspring? I'm not sure that I understand what Hawking is proposing. It still seems that the vast majority of people around the world are still using old fashioned sex to reproduce, which means there's nothing new about our evolution.


Seems like hes lost the plot to me.

The last time there was a significant leap in our evolution was about 80,000 years ago when we first started to wear clothes and make jewlery. This happens to coincide with the 'bottle neck' event. A leap in evolution probably has something to do with low numbers in a given species which multiplies the effect of positive genetic mutation.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 17:24:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grautr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', 'W')hat is this novel and ubiquitous method of altering the DNA of our offspring? I'm not sure that I understand what Hawking is proposing. It still seems that the vast majority of people around the world are still using old fashioned sex to reproduce, which means there's nothing new about our evolution.


Seems like hes lost the plot to me.

The last time there was a significant leap in our evolution was about 80,000 years ago when we first started to wear clothes and make jewlery. This happens to coincide with the 'bottle neck' event. A leap in evolution probably has something to do with low numbers in a given species which multiplies the effect of positive genetic mutation.


He explains what he means. It's in the piece:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawking', 'I')n the last ten thousand years the human species has been in what Hawking calls, "an external transmission phase," where the internal record of information, handed down to succeeding generations in DNA, has not changed significantly. "But the external record, in books, and other long lasting forms of storage," Hawking says, "has grown enormously. Some people would use the term, evolution, only for the internally transmitted genetic material, and would object to it being applied to information handed down externally. But I think that is too narrow a view. We are more than just our genes."


Do you think the complexity and mystery of the human genomic code can survive the onslaught of human study and eventual mastery? I don't.

I guess if you are a theoretician like Hawking, and you look at something that already exists, you say to yourself, "This thing is proven to exist and is very accessible to study so therefore it is completely possible to understand it, reverse engineer it, use its principles of operation in other applications".

By editing the code to eliminate undesirable human gene sequences, you can solve a whole lot of medical problems. Hawking merely points out that this progressively deeper human knowledge, should be considered as part of Evolution Science because it is inevitable that this knowledge will eventually enable people to modify themselves at a fundamental level.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Aaron » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 17:42:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')awking merely points out that this progressively deeper human knowledge, should be considered as part of Evolution Science because it is inevitable that this knowledge will eventually enable people to modify themselves at a fundamental level.


I read that as the idea that the growing body of knowledge directly affects all aspects of our biological heritage. Just like nature selecting for opposable thumbs, but on a vastly larger & faster scale. Up to & including direct genetic manipulation itself.

Over time, "nature" will select those members best able to manipulate & exploit this vast knowledgebase.

Modifying our genetic code.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby eXpat » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 18:06:35

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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Windmills » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 22:57:36

I see. So this is once again basically all on the drawing board. Like fusion. There's no revolution happening, just people predicting that one will.

I wonder if it's inevitable that high tech bio will survive the disintegration of our high energy society.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby seldom_seen » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 23:29:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') always muse that this huge population hump (which was created from our exploitation of ancient, stored sunlight) that we are all part of -- is just another of Gaia's birthing pangs of some creature capable of vastly greater awareness. Just my hunch.

I see just the opposite.

Once humans moved in to agricultural settlements they have grown progressively dumber and less aware. We are so dumb now that we just wantonly destroy ecosystems. Not only that, these same ecosystems are full of knowledge that we have thrown in the garbage. Encyclopedias, vast terabytes of hard drive space packed with useful and important information washed down the drain. Exchanged for useless "tweets" and facebook updates. "OMG, I'm totally having a cup of coffee right now." Not to mention the languages and cultures that now only exist in anthropology books.

Like birds, humans used to navigate the south pacific with no technology. When that huge tsunami hit indonesia, most people stood on the beach like a deer in headlights. The tribespeople of the Andaman and Nicobar islands though. They had their ear to the ground and fled inland to high ground. We have lost something critical, essential, that used to guide us through this world. We have broken our link to Gaia (as gay as that sounds).

We're a monoculture now subsisting on corn syrup. The amount of knowledge we've lost exceeds anything we can hope to learn. Our technology is myopic, and frequently has dangerous and deadly results. The information age is mainly a flight of fantasy away from the horrendous mess we've made of the real world.

If Gaia has any message for industrial civilization, it is "time to pack your bags."
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby NickyBoy » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 05:05:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')awking merely points out that this progressively deeper human knowledge, should be considered as part of Evolution Science because it is inevitable that this knowledge will eventually enable people to modify themselves at a fundamental level.


I read that as the idea that the growing body of knowledge directly affects all aspects of our biological heritage. Just like nature selecting for opposable thumbs, but on a vastly larger & faster scale. Up to & including direct genetic manipulation itself.

Over time, "nature" will select those members best able to manipulate & exploit this vast knowledgebase.

Modifying our genetic code.


No, I think you both missed his point.

The ability to 'modify our own DNA' does not come into it. The core of his theory is that we have gone beyond biological changes.

Also, unless an inability to manipulate high-level information prevents one's self from reproducing, nature will most certainly not do any form of biological selection based on data manipulation abilities.

His theory is that progressive biological evolution has ended and that it is now our knowledge and information that is evolving, Take everything you know about biological evolutionary fitness tests and apply that to information.That is how we will advance from now on (end of the world scenarios not withstanding :lol: ).

The poster above who linked an image about memes was onto the right track.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 08:26:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough It has taken homo sapiens several million years to evolve from the apes, the useful information in our DNA, has probably changed by only a few million bits. So the rate of biological evolution in humans, Stephen Hawking points out in his Life in the Universe lecture, is about a bit a year.

"By contrast," Hawking says, "there are about 50,000 new books published in the English language each year, containing of the order of a hundred billion bits of information. Of course, the great majority of this information is garbage, and no use to any form of life. But, even so, the rate at which useful information can be added is millions, if not billions, higher than with DNA."

This means Hawking says that we have entered a new phase of evolution. "At first, evolution proceeded by natural selection, from random mutations. This Darwinian phase, lasted about three and a half billion years, and produced us, beings who developed language, to exchange information..."


1st - We didn't evolve from the apes.
2cd - There is no such thing as 'natural selection, from random mutations'.
3rd - Darwin was wrong.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 08:31:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') always muse that this huge population hump (which was created from our exploitation of ancient, stored sunlight) that we are all part of -- is just another of Gaia's birthing pangs of some creature capable of vastly greater awareness. Just my hunch.

I see just the opposite.

Once humans moved in to agricultural settlements they have grown progressively dumber and less aware. We are so dumb now that we just wantonly destroy ecosystems. Not only that, these same ecosystems are full of knowledge that we have thrown in the garbage. Encyclopedias, vast terabytes of hard drive space packed with useful and important information washed down the drain. Exchanged for useless "tweets" and facebook updates. "OMG, I'm totally having a cup of coffee right now." Not to mention the languages and cultures that now only exist in anthropology books.

Like birds, humans used to navigate the south pacific with no technology. When that huge tsunami hit indonesia, most people stood on the beach like a deer in headlights. The tribespeople of the Andaman and Nicobar islands though. They had their ear to the ground and fled inland to high ground. We have lost something critical, essential, that used to guide us through this world. We have broken our link to Gaia (as gay as that sounds).

We're a monoculture now subsisting on corn syrup. The amount of knowledge we've lost exceeds anything we can hope to learn. Our technology is myopic, and frequently has dangerous and deadly results. The information age is mainly a flight of fantasy away from the horrendous mess we've made of the real world.

If Gaia has any message for industrial civilization, it is "time to pack your bags."


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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 10:38:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') always muse that this huge population hump (which was created from our exploitation of ancient, stored sunlight) that we are all part of -- is just another of Gaia's birthing pangs of some creature capable of vastly greater awareness. Just my hunch.

I see just the opposite.

Once humans moved in to agricultural settlements they have grown progressively dumber and less aware. We are so dumb now that we just wantonly destroy ecosystems. Not only that, these same ecosystems are full of knowledge that we have thrown in the garbage. Encyclopedias, vast terabytes of hard drive space packed with useful and important information washed down the drain. Exchanged for useless "tweets" and facebook updates. "OMG, I'm totally having a cup of coffee right now." Not to mention the languages and cultures that now only exist in anthropology books.

Like birds, humans used to navigate the south pacific with no technology. When that huge tsunami hit indonesia, most people stood on the beach like a deer in headlights. The tribespeople of the Andaman and Nicobar islands though. They had their ear to the ground and fled inland to high ground. We have lost something critical, essential, that used to guide us through this world. We have broken our link to Gaia (as gay as that sounds).

We're a monoculture now subsisting on corn syrup. The amount of knowledge we've lost exceeds anything we can hope to learn. Our technology is myopic, and frequently has dangerous and deadly results. The information age is mainly a flight of fantasy away from the horrendous mess we've made of the real world.

If Gaia has any message for industrial civilization, it is "time to pack your bags."


Yep, there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. It is better to have wisdom, and that is what we had before.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 13:14:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eXpat', '[')img]http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/images/mmcover.gif[/img]


This book had a profound influence on my thinking. I encourage anyone to read this. It will help to understand what Hawkings is saying. It's all about memes.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 13:19:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eXpat', '[')img]http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/images/mmcover.gif[/img]


This book had a profound influence on my thinking. I encourage anyone to read this. It will help to understand what Hawkings is saying. It's all about memes.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Amazon', '[')b]From Publishers Weekly
Over a decade ago, Richard Dawkins, who contributes a foreword to this book, coined the term "meme" for a unit of culture that is transmitted via imitation and naturally "selected" by popularity or longevity. Dawkins used memes to show that the theory known as Universal Darwinism, according to which "all life evolves by the differential survival of replicating entities," applies to more than just genes. Now, building on his ideas, psychologist Blackmore contends that memes can account for many forms of human behavior that do not obviously serve the "selfish gene." For example, a possible gene-meme co-evolution among early humans could have selected for true altruism among humans: people who help others (whether or not they are related) can influence them and thus spread their memes. Meme transmission would also explain some thorny problems in sociobiology. From a gene's point of view, celibacy, birth control and adoption are horrible mistakes. From a meme's point of view, they are a gold mine. Few or no children free up the meme-carrier to devote more energy to horizontal transmission to non-relatives (monks and nuns the world over figured that out long ago), something the gene is incapable of. With adoption, memes can even co-opt vertical transmission between generations. Blackmore posits that, in modern culture, meme replication has almost completely overwhelmed the glacially slow gene replication. Well written and personable, this provocative book makes a cogentAif not wholly persuasive case for the concept of memes and for the importance of their effects on human culture.
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Re: Hawking: "Humans Have Entered a New Stage of Evolution

Unread postby eXpat » Tue 07 Jul 2009, 13:24:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eXpat', '[')img]http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/images/mmcover.gif[/img]


This book had a profound influence on my thinking. I encourage anyone to read this. It will help to understand what Hawkings is saying. It's all about memes.

+1 Ibon, i would in fact take recommend to read first "The selfish gene", take some time to digest it and then go to this one. Then you will realize that some of the tech "solutions" to death (that i used to be were possible before reading this book) such as "uploading" consciousness into computers (ala SF series of the hechees) are not possible at all. I won´t say more, is very good reading.
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