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Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 25 Jun 2009, 18:57:58

No one need lose cargo space to make room for extra fuel storage space. You only need re-design vehicles to accommodate larger fuel tanks. As I said before, imagine a Ford Taurus with its back trunk a foot longer, or something like that.

A truck is even more of a non-issue: Last time I looked, the fuel tanks in a semi truck did not even take up any room potentially dedicated to cargo storage at all! :roll:

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And if even 10%-20% of US vehicles started running on CNG, you can be sure manufacturers would start re-designing their CNG vehicles to accommodate larger tanks. That would be too big a market for them to pay mere lip service to.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby the48thronin » Wed 01 Jul 2009, 19:47:39

They are already running LNG trucks , more will appear soon now that freightliner and kenworth are both putting test trucks out in California. All that is needed are more government grants to pay for it all. So far all the LNG trucks I know about are running local.
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby Gerben » Thu 02 Jul 2009, 01:54:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')mployees who drive the small CNG cars have learned from unpleasant experience not to venture onto a freeway with less than a half tank of gas. The gauge can plunge to “E” with alarming swiftness. Stranded employees have no recourse but to call our garage for help. The garage cannot simply send out a pickup with a gallon of gasoline, for they are not equipped to dispense CNG. They must send a wrecker to tow the car to the fueling station. So it goes with CNG vehicles.

Long-haul truckers, whose livelihood depends on continual travel pulling full loads, do not want to
worry about making it to the next fueling station; few wreckers can tow a fully-loaded 18-wheeler. Nor
do truckers want to surrender 25% of precious cargo space to CNG tanks.

Just like you'd need a jerrycan for carrying gasoline, there are also CNG bottles (with hose) for refueling stranded vehicles. Tow trucks however are there already so garages don't bother investing in it.
No idea where he got the 25% from. You don't lose space if you accept a lower driving range. Or could hang a zillion CNG bottles underneath the trailer. I've seen a truck with the back of the cabin full of CNG bottles to get normal range; you'd lose about 6 inches with this solution. I've never seen 2 foot length trailers.
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby the48thronin » Fri 03 Jul 2009, 12:37:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gerben', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')mployees who drive the small CNG cars have learned from unpleasant experience not to venture onto a freeway with less than a half tank of gas. The gauge can plunge to “E” with alarming swiftness. Stranded employees have no recourse but to call our garage for help. The garage cannot simply send out a pickup with a gallon of gasoline, for they are not equipped to dispense CNG. They must send a wrecker to tow the car to the fueling station. So it goes with CNG vehicles.

Long-haul truckers, whose livelihood depends on continual travel pulling full loads, do not want to
worry about making it to the next fueling station; few wreckers can tow a fully-loaded 18-wheeler. Nor
do truckers want to surrender 25% of precious cargo space to CNG tanks.

Just like you'd need a jerrycan for carrying gasoline, there are also CNG bottles (with hose) for refueling stranded vehicles. Tow trucks however are there already so garages don't bother investing in it.
No idea where he got the 25% from. You don't lose space if you accept a lower driving range. Or could hang a zillion CNG bottles underneath the trailer. I've seen a truck with the back of the cabin full of CNG bottles to get normal range; you'd lose about 6 inches with this solution. I've never seen 2 foot length trailers.


Weight is often the critical factor in many trucking operations. Unless shipper expectations can be changed, the added weight I have seen on those LNG trucks will be a problem.

Over the years I have been trucking, we have gone from 40 ft trailers to 53 ft trailers and the PTB in the industry want 58 ft trailers now. Our weight has gone from 72,380 to 80,00 and they want 90,000 now.

1 MPG can be gained in most trucking operations with the simple expedient of adding a battery bank, sine wave inverter, and ac unit so that drivers will not have to idle the motor when sleeping. FEW trucking companies can afford the weight, in fact the less useful generator and ac units they sell on the market now have made little headway into the market until they allowed a 400 pound extra exemption for trucks so equipped.

My own operation is in an area where weight is seldom a consideration, but fuel availability is, and reliability is, and cold weather is. My brother has been propane driving for years and lives at 8000 ft in the mountains, winters can be real interesting with a propane vehicle, I am not sure of the LNG situation there.

As to the portable refills for LNG wanna tell me the pressure numbers of compress NG again? Gasoline spills are a small hazard in roadside encounters, now picture that hose after 3 years of riding around in the back of that service truck.... Possible in mounted reeled situations it might be only 10 times as dangerous as a gasoline can, but I can see the labor laws and lawyers and training requirements and.... oh regulation ad nauseoum right?

Just my thoughts
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 03 Jul 2009, 17:49:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s to the portable refills for LNG wanna tell me the pressure numbers of compress NG again?


I'll answer that although I'm guessing you're being rhetorical: 3600 psi usually, although some passenger vehicle conversions operate at around 3k and there was a story in May about some newfangled approach to compression using carbon derived from, uh, corncobs, to bring the ratio down very low - ca. 500 psi. Still vaporware far as I've heard.

Another forum: Natural Gas Vehicle Owner Community. Hey, the World’s Largest LNG/CNG Truck Fueling Station Opens in California.

Guess that 25% number was pulled out of a posterior. But some of the pics I've seen make it look like the tanks really pile on the weight:

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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby the48thronin » Fri 03 Jul 2009, 18:43:26

That is a conversion the new ones look much nicer.. The ones they had at the Vegas truck show last year had a 300 mile range. ( my truck has a 1400 mile per fill range).

Maybe I can find the pics of the test beds from the truck show.. if I can I will put them here. Meanwhile IF the rails could handle it, and the freight was all intermodaled, maybe the LNG trucks could be used efficiently. The plans now are to work them on the land bridge in Calif from the ports to the rail head about 30 miles round trip.
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby Gerben » Sat 04 Jul 2009, 03:50:02

LNG and CNG storage are not the same. I don't think there is a portable refill for LNG trucks. There's mobile refueling trucks for that.
CNG can be stored in portable bottles (although you cannot carry enough to get far with a truck, that's just a solution for passenger cars) and no: you don't want to have one lying around in your car. Fill it, drive to the stranded vehicle, fill the vehicle then blow off the remaining gas from the bottle.
For CNG trucks you could use one of those trucks with enough range for 1400 mi and a special service hose as mobile station, just connect the hose and the pressure in both trucks will equalize making both trucks half-full. (No spilling possible, it's a closed system.)
For CNG you run into weight problems, because of the bottle weight. With LNG this is not a problem. LNG is preffered over CNG for long haul trucks even though it's not as cheap.
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby TheDude » Wed 15 Jul 2009, 07:16:10

Bill to Jumpstart Natural-Gas Vehicles in Utah?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;In 2005, as part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, I was able to get the CLEAR Act enacted into law," Hatch said. "That legislation has promoted the purchase of alternative-fuel and hybrid vehicles, alternative-fuel infrastructure and the use of alternative fuels in vehicles. I have been very pleased with the growth in the use of hybrid-electric vehicles in this country since the passage of the CLEAR Act, but I have been less pleased with the growth in natural gas as a transportation fuel. I believe strongly an extra push is needed to spur the greater use of natural gas and to get more natural gas vehicles on our roads."

The Menendez/Hatch Natural Gas Act (S. 1408) would extend the life of the CLEAR Act credits for natural-gas vehicles, natural-gas filling infrastructure and for the use of natural gas in vehicles. It also creates a new incentive for the manufacture of natural-gas vehicles and trucks.

"Utah has been a leader in the nation in pushing the use of natural-gas vehicles," Hatch said. "But there has been a shortage of natural-gas vehicles that are commercially available."
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Re: Why unconventional natural gas makes the Waxman target easy

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 15 Jul 2009, 21:12:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s to the portable refills for LNG wanna tell me the pressure numbers of compress NG again?


I'll answer that although I'm guessing you're being rhetorical: 3600 psi usually, although some passenger vehicle conversions operate at around 3k and there was a story in May about some newfangled approach to compression using carbon derived from, uh, corncobs, to bring the ratio down very low - ca. 500 psi. Still vaporware far as I've heard.

Another forum: Natural Gas Vehicle Owner Community. Hey, the World’s Largest LNG/CNG Truck Fueling Station Opens in California.

Guess that 25% number was pulled out of a posterior. But some of the pics I've seen make it look like the tanks really pile on the weight:

Image

BTW, encountered this recently:
>>> CNG Freightliner <<<
Just a regular truck:
Image
>>> Business Class M112 <<<
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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