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Poll shows sink or swim for grads

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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 28 May 2009, 09:40:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', '
')Many tradesmen have college educations as well as technical school educations, apprenticeship educations and multiple certifications.



I'm sure that's true, but it seemed like folks in this thread were comparing trade school degrees with college degrees, not talking about folks with multiple degrees in various disciplines.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby MarkJ » Thu 28 May 2009, 09:42:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I')f these guy's are any good, union scale is well over $30 hour and self-employment would see at least $75 hour. Any skilled tradesman making only $20 hour would be a butch jobber around here.


Any plumber working for $20 per hour in my region is probably an unlicensed helper or a hack, handyman or side-jobber working for cash.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby odegaard » Thu 28 May 2009, 10:03:15

To: 3aidlillahi

Let me explain what your problem is.
You got upset because I said something (which made a lot of sense) but didn't fit your preconceived ideology.
You then tried to discredit me with a strawman argument.
Nice try but you obviously failed.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby odegaard » Thu 28 May 2009, 11:11:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.')..
I'm sure that's true, but it seemed like folks in this thread were comparing trade school degrees with college degrees, not talking about folks with multiple degrees in various disciplines.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.
When I first jumped into this thread I simply just wanted to say:
1) many college degrees simply do not pay
2) we have too many college graduates
3) therefore less people should go to college and instead take up an alternative (trade school perhaps)
I certainly didn't want this to turn into a debate about who makes more money but apparently I guess that's how the internet works. You have little control over how things ultimately evolve or should I say devolve. :wink:

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet but there is a societal ***stigma*** attached to people who do not have college degrees. Because of this many people simply want to get a degree (ANY degree) no matter how financially disastrous it may be.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Thu 28 May 2009, 12:35:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy do blind ideologists like 3aidlillahi have to get Ape Shit crazy and throw shit at me?


What? I didn't go crazy or get upset. I simply debated the points that they don't have graphs comparing trade schools directly to bachelor's. I was wrong. I then looked at the notion that some occupations will yield greater pay than some bachelor degrees. And I agreed with you there.

How exactly am I a blind ideologist for agreeing with you and admitting my mistakes?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy jump on the messenger and straw man other people's arguments?


When did I ever "jump on the messenger"? And what straw man did I use?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ny plumber working for $20 per hour in my region is probably an unlicensed helper or a hack, handyman or side-jobber working for cash.


I think the numbers I got was saying that if you look at a 40 hour work week, then it's on average $20 an hour. But plumbers may not be paid continuously, right? They will go from one job and get paid $x/hour and then have to drive to another but they don't get paid for that time in between jobs. If you average out those $30 or $75/hour jobs with the hours that you aren't being paid for, then it's around $20/hour, right? If you work 40 hours a week and make $75/hour, that's about $150,000 per year. I don't think plumbers make that much, maybe they do.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 28 May 2009, 13:06:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I'm pretty sure that it was post 2000.


I think that it could pretty well be explained, in addition to what you said, by the housing and stock market bubbles. Since you're looking at post 2000, then it's likely that the people who were millionaires without higher-ed degrees got into the bubbles in the beginning. This way, they can easily make a killing by flipping houses or even building houses in suburbia or buying tech stocks in the early '90's.

While the higher educated certainly could and did get into these bubbles, they likely weren't the ones that were making a lot of money because they, such as doctors, lawyers and bankers, tend to work a lot of hours. They would likely focus more on productive means of accumulating wealth than speculation.

Given that these bubbles have burst, it'd be interesting to go back and see the numbers again. Of the millionaires, is there still a negative correlation between education (in degrees) and wealth? I'd have to think that if it's not positive by now that it's at least flattening out.

The stat was pre-housing & stock bubbles actually. When I said post 2000 I was actually thinking around '01-'02.

You might find the book I mentioned to jdmartin enlightening 3aidillahi, if this topic is of genuine interest to you. Many of the assumptions people make about who the wealthy are in the U.S., how they became wealthy, what their lifestyle is, etc. are wrong. Here are a few of the findings shared in that book:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')As the prototypical American millionaire:]

You may or may not get this from the above profile, but the balance of the book makes it clear that most of these millionaires are decidedly not speculators in any market. They are exceedingly conservative both with how they spend their incomes and how they invest.

Another point it makes is that generally professionals actually spend less time and energy dealing with investments than do the entrepreneur/business owner folks (which is probably why they are a minority among millionaires). In fact they are the ones who are most often speculators (ostensibly because 'fast-profit flipping' is 'hip', while slow, methodical long-term investing isn't).
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Thu 28 May 2009, 14:32:56

I believe I have a couple of millionaires in my family and I reside with a roommate who's family is also a millionaire so I was basing my conclusions off of their activities.

1) Uncle - Hedge Fund manager dealing primarily with oil/gas. Tons of money.

2) Uncle (possibly millionaire or pretty close) - owns (?) a construction company in Florida (housing boom); lives very cheaply

Neither of them have even a CC education.

3) Roommate's family - very well educated - flip houses (still)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he stat was pre-housing & stock bubbles actually. When I said post 2000 I was actually thinking around '01-'02.


The bubbles have been going on for a while. The Dow in 1990 was about 2000. In 2001, it was about 8000. Housing prices were about (median) $90,000 in 1990. In 2001, then were about $140,000. There's plenty of boom there even if they weren't at the peaks.

Also, I didn't mean to say or imply that I thought all of those who were wealthy and "uneducated" were lucky or speculators; however, many of them are/were. But I do think that the boom market has allowed people like those to gain an advantage because it became a market where street smarts could land you big bucks. I don't think that the future will yield the same prospects on such a scale.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nother point it makes is that generally professionals actually spend less time and energy dealing with investments than do the entrepreneur/business owner folks


I agree, I said it at the beginning.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 28 May 2009, 17:28:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '2')) we have too many college graduates


I disagree. We might have too many college graduates expecting too much from a college degree.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '3')) therefore less people should go to college and instead take up an alternative (trade school perhaps)


I disagree. If people want to go to college then they should do that, as long as they realize it doesn't guarantee them a good-paying job and they may need to acquire useful skills elsewhere.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 't')here is a societal ***stigma*** attached to people who do not have college degrees.


I agree, and it's idiotic. Some of the most highly-degreed people I've known (PhDs) couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

Conversely some of the most brilliant I've met had no degree.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby JJ » Thu 28 May 2009, 21:50:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '2')) we have too many college graduates


I disagree. We might have too many college graduates expecting too much from a college degree.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '3')) therefore less people should go to college and instead take up an alternative (trade school perhaps)


I disagree. If people want to go to college then they should do that, as long as they realize it doesn't guarantee them a good-paying job and they may need to acquire useful skills elsewhere.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 't')here is a societal ***stigma*** attached to people who do not have college degrees.


I agree, and it's idiotic. Some of the most highly-degreed people I've known (PhDs) couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

Conversely some of the most brilliant I've met had no degree.


Ludi, after my wasted youth my mentor told me to get a GED, then a college education "because your a fu%$ing idiot (his words)". He also said pay as you go so you won't be blacklisted like all of your friends and don't expect a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but rather get an education for the sake of an education. Excellent advice.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby odegaard » Fri 29 May 2009, 12:50:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy jump on the messenger and straw man other people's arguments?


When did I ever "jump on the messenger"? And what straw man did I use?
You accused me of cherry-picking (page 3). That is not true.
By definition cherry-picking is a deliberate attempt at misrepresentation by using a selective sample of data to make an inaccurate generalization of a larger population.

For example if I said plumbers make more money than Art history graduates therefore people who go to trade schools make more money than college graduates --> now that is cherry-picking!
That was never my intention.
I said plumbers make more money than art history graduates. What does this mean?
Simply stated some college degrees do NOT pay. This is not cherry-picking.

//

Lets take a closer look at an often quoted statistic:
"College graduates *on average* will make $1 million more than high school grads over a lifetime."
There's a tremendous amount of variance in income for college grads.
a silly example:
--- an art history major makes $30,000
--- an engineer makes $110,000
therefore the average income is $70,000 (who is making this income? answer=nobody)
Does this mean if a person goes to college will they make $1 million more than a high school grad over a lifetime?
NO NO NO
What this means is a college grad will either make a boatload of extra money or no more money than a high school grad. It depends on what major a person chooses.
But *on average* they will make $1 million more.
What's the saying, "If your head is on fire and your feet is frozen it means on *average* you're doing okay." :roll:

Not to sound insulting but I think there's a lot of mathematically ignorant college graduates who do not understand this. They keep on reading the statistics and think a college degree = $1million more.
*smacks forehead*
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby MarkJ » Fri 29 May 2009, 13:05:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ny plumber working for $20 per hour in my region is probably an unlicensed helper or a hack, handyman or side-jobber working for cash.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think the numbers I got was saying that if you look at a 40 hour work week, then it's on average $20 an hour. But plumbers may not be paid continuously, right? They will go from one job and get paid $x/hour and then have to drive to another but they don't get paid for that time in between jobs. If you average out those $30 or $75/hour jobs with the hours that you aren't being paid for, then it's around $20/hour, right? If you work 40 hours a week and make $75/hour, that's about $150,000 per year. I don't think plumbers make that much, maybe they do.


Self employed plumbers have many hours that aren't billable or fully billable to customers such as paperwork, *some* travel time, estimates, *some* warranty work, returns, call-backs, inventory restocking, ordering, restocking fees, job/service cancellations, no-shows etc, hence why rates are so high. Some billable hour issues like travel time balance out when round-trip travel time can be billed to multiple customers within the same region, athough travel between customers may only be a few minutes.

It's difficult to calculate the true hourly rate of self employed plumbers when performing maintenance, service, repairs, installations and upgrades due to the nature of billing. Many plumbers do a combination of cash work, barter work, time & materials work, flat rate work, job quote work, job quote (plus extras) work, plus they make money from selling service contracts, extended warranties etc.

In addition, many fees are hidden in the form of standard service charges, same day service charges, emergency service charges, diagnostic fees, parts mark-up, equipment markup, salvaged equipment/parts/materials value etc.

While a plumber may only charge $80 per hour for labor, he may sell a $50 part for $300 in addition to the hour it takes to install it, plus charge a standard, same day or emergency service fee, diagnostic fee etc. The true hourly cost may be 300/400/500 per hour.

Also, while on the job he may convince the homeowners or business owners that they need new boiler(s), new indirect water heaters, outdoor reset controls, new piping, zoning, baseboard, panel radiators, radiant heat or other upgrades. A simple service call could turn into a $10,000 plus job.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby TWilliam » Fri 29 May 2009, 13:08:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'W')hat this means is a college grad will either make a boatload of extra money or no more money than a high school grad. It depends on what major a person chooses.

Actually, I would say it depends on what they do once they graduate. A degree might broaden their options, but many people end up working in careers that don't even directly relate to the degree. Note that I'm not saying that the education isn't necessarily helpful to them...
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 29 May 2009, 13:24:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')elf employed plumbers have many hours that aren't billable or fully billable to customers such as paperwork, *some* travel time, estimates, *some* warranty work, returns, call-backs, inventory restocking, ordering, restocking fees, job/service cancellations, no-shows etc, hence why rates are so high. Some billable hour issues like travel time balance out when round-trip travel time can be billed to multiple customers within the same region, athough travel between customers may only be a few minutes.


Isn't that pretty much what I just said? The BLS numbers were just averaging over a 40-hour work week. Plumbers on average aren't making $100,000 a year but probably somewhere around $40,000.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby MarkJ » Fri 29 May 2009, 14:35:33

Even someone that isn't a plumber (unlicensed) like Joe The Plumber can easily make $40,000 plus per year (on the books) doing unlicensed illegal plumbing work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')rganizations such as the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors Association and The United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters (UA) (which has endorsed Obama) don't keep statistics on how much members take home, or on industry earning standards. But a representative at the UA says that owners of plumbing businesses would likely take bigger hits in economic hard times because they incur the production costs of keeping a company running. Paul Abrams, a spokesman for Roto-Rooter, the nation's largest plumbing and drain service provider, says he has seen evidence of that. "We've had some people who owned businesses close up shop and come work for us," Abrams says.

He notes that some master plumbers (about five to seven years experience) at the Cincinnati-based company make in excess of $100,000 a year. "A good plumber can pretty much write his ticket and make a good living with a good amount of experience," Abrams says. The outsourcing boom that has sucked information technology jobs overseas, coupled with a dearth of workers in plumbing — a somewhat recession-resistant market — makes for an industry ripe for growth. As for Wurzelbacher, based on the region of the country he works in, the amount of experience he has, and the fact that he is unlicensed, he could be currently making anywhere between $40,000 and $70,000 — and no, he won't get stung by the Obama tax plan even if he buys that business. Still, not bad for an average Joe.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 29 May 2009, 19:53:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')elf employed plumbers have many hours that aren't billable or fully billable to customers such as paperwork, *some* travel time, estimates, *some* warranty work, returns, call-backs, inventory restocking, ordering, restocking fees, job/service cancellations, no-shows etc, hence why rates are so high. Some billable hour issues like travel time balance out when round-trip travel time can be billed to multiple customers within the same region, athough travel between customers may only be a few minutes.


Isn't that pretty much what I just said? The BLS numbers were just averaging over a 40-hour work week. Plumbers on average aren't making $100,000 a year but probably somewhere around $40,000.


Try $70,000 to $80,000 year. Plus benefits. :lol:
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby OutOfGas » Fri 29 May 2009, 20:44:30

Many schools have degree programs that will not supply a good high paying job.

I know a former student who majored in Film/TV/Acting. He ran up 100 M in student loans over 5 years.

He never finished his degree. The loan company really came after him after he quit paying..

Currently laid off from his job and living with his expecting girlfriend.

I think schools need to be more upfront on real world chances.

Cost of degree versus being to get a job and pay off loans.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Fri 29 May 2009, 23:45:23

It is fundamentally up to the student to decide what they want to study, how hard they want to work, and what they want to do with their education.

For someone with a practical major and a strong work ethic, a college education opens up many doors.
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby TWilliam » Fri 29 May 2009, 23:59:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'a') strong work ethic

That appears to be an increasingly rare commodity these days... :(
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 30 May 2009, 00:41:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'a') strong work ethic

That appears to be an increasingly rare commodity these days... :(


Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree with you on that one.

The entitlement mentality has engulfed far too many of today's young people (and everyone else, for that matter).
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Re: Poll shows sink or swim for grads

Unread postby cephalotus » Sat 30 May 2009, 16:31:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'I') never understood why Liberals Politicians keep on trying to push more people into college.
It is a cruel hoax. It would of been more kind and gentle to just punch people in the nose.

Sure a doctor, lawyer, or engineer will pay off their college debts.
But there's so many people out there with degrees like liberal arts, art history, and music appreciation. You know what's going to happen to those college graduates right?
They're just going to move back into mommy and daddy's house to collect free rent for the next 12 years as they *try* to pay off the credit card interest on that cheese pizza they ate in their freshman dorm room. :roll:


It's one of the biggest myths that there are enough "full time jobs" in the "productive sector" available. It doesn't work that way in current economy, not even to speak of a peak oil economy without significant growth in GDP.

There are two possibilities to solve the unemployment problem.

1. everyone works less, let's stop that working 60hours a week bullshit.
2. people work in "non productive" jobs. In my opinion these jobs contribute much more to humankind than most productive jobs.

I'm really scared by people that believe that there isn't enough benefit in art, history or music. What a cruel world we would live in without artists, musicans and so on.
A world full of engineers, lawyers and consultants would be hell.

btw, I'm an engineer.

The problem is not to study arts, the problem is that those people do earn much less than those people who push virtual money from one computer to the next and the other problem is that students have to go into dept for education.

What a stupid system.
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