[Wildwell]

Well as I said, it depends. It maybe in the future sports events will be piped over the internet. But we've always had sport, even in Roman days and they weren't using many fossil fuels then.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')How about if you did it digitally?

[Wildwell]

Hmn, I don't know exactly would you do, but I do a lot of 3d myself usually it works out cheaper than traditional methods. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's just an illustration on different ways of thinking about things. The oil age started about 1950, it's just a phase, we're going to have to do things differently in the future, but less energy doesn't mean certain things cannot be done, just in different ways!

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'H')mn, I don't know exactly would you do, but I do a lot of 3d myself usually it works out cheaper than traditional methods.

[Wildwell]

Depends really. You can make that sort of thing quite easily in Maya or with some of the other stuff with plug-ins. Then it's you're hourly rate you can get away with in the market. Once models are built, long as they are boned properly, it’s possible to do that sort of thing within a reasonable time with not much more than a battery powered laptop, even out and about traveling. You can rent render farms now over the net and let someone else worry about powering the stuff, but computers don’t use that much power and they are getting more efficient.

[Ludi]

Wildwell, you said you do digital work, and I asked you how much you would charge for such a thing, can you answer the question please? Or tell me you'd rather not answer it? I'm asking an actual question, not a hypothetical question about what "one" might charge - how much would you charge?

Jesus tapdancing Christ, how hard is it to get a straight answer around here?

If I sound impatient, I am. It's easy to say "it's cheaper and uses less energy," but I'm trying to determine if it actually is cheaper as you say, or if this is just some hypothetical "it might be cheaper in some alternate universe." I'm trying to get real information from you here Wildwell, not just some fiction.

[Wildwell]

Sorry Ludi, I can't give you a straight answer because I don't charge a straight hourly rate, do things like what you’re describing and it's a part time thing for me. There will be people that can give you a better answer, here or elsewhere.

[Ludi]

So you never bid on jobs? You can't give me an estimate for this simple thing that is "cheaper?"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'b')ut I do a lot of 3d myself usually it works out cheaper than traditional methods.

[Wildwell]

How on earth am I supposed to give a costs/analysis breakdown on a job that I have no idea of the skill or the artist, no idea of exactly what you want to do, no idea on many other factors about your line of business. I could say $100 an hour, which would be reasonable for this sort of thing at a low end, but as I said I don’t know your line of work. Come on Ludi be reasonable. I cannot speculate or give you an exact estimate but it’s usually accepted that digital 3d work is usually cheaper, but not always. I make models and charge for the models I don’t work by the hour.

I could only know if you would save energy by measuring what you use now and comparing the new methods. How on earth am I supposed to do that?

[Ludi]

Have I simply misunderstood you? I thought you said you did digital 3d work - are you saying you make physical models? If so, I'm sorry I've been so impatient.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')it’s usually accepted that digital 3d work is usually cheaper, but not always.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')it’s usually accepted that digital 3d work is usually cheaper, but not always.

[Ludi]

Oh for pete's sake Wildwell. You said you do digital 3d, right? Do you work professionally? I'm assuming no, otherwise you would know enough to be able to estimate the cost of three digital 3d model squirrels. I have to bid on things all the time, it's not a trick question. When you're asked to give some solid information you get huffy and insult your opponent. Do you think you're building any credibility here? You've lost all credibility with me.

[fastbike]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'O')h for pete's sake Wildwell. ... Do you think you're building any credibility here? You've lost all credibility with me.

[Ludi]

This thread sort of wandered off on a weird tangent there, sorry for the digression. But it made me think of a question maybe someone who understands economics might be able to answer.

In several threads there's been discussion of the growth of the economy using less energy. Some mention of knowledge work, which pays better than physical labor, but uses less energy. My question is, if knowledge work, such as the example above - digital effects - uses less energy but pays better than physical work, how can it cost less? That's what I'm not understanding, how something which pays better can cost less. I'm assuming the decreased cost is in the cost of the energy, so that the worker actually gets more of the cost of the item, rather than those costs going to pay for the energy. But would this still be true in a future with more expensive energy? Even if you're conserving energy, if that energy is more expensive, you may not be saving anything.

This is probably all extremely elementary, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, I completely don't understand economics.

[kerosene]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'W')ell as I said, it depends. It maybe in the future sports events will be piped over the internet. But we've always had sport, even in Roman days and they weren't using many fossil fuels then.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kerosene', ' ')That squirrel was a damn good example on what not to do digitally. Set extension some super tricky stunts and "impossible" are good for digital. But certainly there are zillion things that it is way more efficient to do in real life.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fastbike', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'O')h for pete's sake Wildwell. ... Do you think you're building any credibility here? You've lost all credibility with me.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kerosene', ' ')That squirrel was a damn good example on what not to do digitally. Set extension some super tricky stunts and "impossible" are good for digital. But certainly there are zillion things that it is way more efficient to do in real life.

[Ludi]

Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. I still don't agree digital is cheaper, but, our argument about it would end up just being something along the lines of "Is so!" "Is not!" "Is so!"

I don't earn $100 an hour, so from my point of view, digital isn't cheaper if the workers earn $100 an hour, for the same number of hours. But since we can't compare hours, we really can't compare costs.

I've been in the motion picture effects field for 20 years, so I like to think I have a least a passing familiarity with the techniques and relative costs. But, maybe I'm getting old and out of touch.