[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jboogy', 'W')ho in their right mind is going to refute indicators such as how happy or comfortable...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'H')ow do you quantify happiness? You might as well pull numbers out of your ass.

[jboogy]

odegaard wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow do you quantify happiness? You might as well pull numbers out of your ass.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jboogy', 'T')he notion that per capita production has a direct correlation with standard of living is becoming more discredited by the day,

[jboogy]

That's it?.....OMFG!!!!! Dude , you do realize it would have looked better for you if you had not replied at all? I can't ever remember one of you neocons ever rolling over so quickly before. You really are just a sad little talking point regurgitater and nothing more, aren't you? A crack about a girlfriend and an old picture of some kid in school!!!! Are you F*CK*NG SERIOUS??????? You do realize I've just completely exposed you as someone who has absolutely no clue about why you believe what you believe??? You have brought nothing to the debate except the same tired old Limbaugh oxycontin hallucinations. I actually kind of feel sorry for you.

[jboogy]

sorry cbxre55, don't remember you or that conversation, but I see you haven't forgotten me, I'm flattered.

ummm,....you're not a guy are you? that could be a little weird.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cbxer55', 'O')degaard, keep at it man, eventually he will give up and disappear. The last time him and I were at it, he was gone for six months. I kept watching thinking he was gone for good. no dice for he is back and at it again. Him and his "thats it, thats all you got?" It is his normal reportoire, same as any empty suit. Its kind of irritating is'nt it. "Thats it, thats all there is?"
...

[Tyler_JC]

Not to get involved in a flame war...

But no government can ever provide something for "free". A "free" government service implies that someone is being taxed to pay for it.

The difference between France and the United States is that people in France are taxed at a much higher level in order to provide the additional government services. The net effect on society depends on how efficiently the government can provide those services relative to the free market. That's all that matters. It's not the level of taxation, it's the quality of the services.

If the government can take $1 from me and provide $1 worth of services to me, I probably won't care about the taxes. It's when they take $5 from me and provide $2 worth of service to someone on the dole that bothers me.

Obviously, there are some services that only a government can and should provide. National defense, for example, could never become an efficient free market. I shouldn't have to explain why.

For health care, it appears that governments might have a comparative advantage in providing basic health care services, at least when you look at the French model.

The health care is "free" in France if you ignore the extra taxes. Other factors:
-Doctors get paid a lot less in France
-Medical school is paid for by society (taxpayers)
-Medical lawsuits are rare
-Insurance billing is speedy and efficient
-The government only covers the basics, you cover the rest
-90% of French citizens have some kind of private coverage in addition to government insurance
-Most importantly- France does not have socialized medicine. That's why its health care doesn't suck like the British "National Health Service".

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/11/frances_model_healthcare_system/

The university education in France is "free" but you pay for it in the form of higher taxes and mediocre universities.

Number of top 100 Universities in France: 4
Number of top 100 Universities in the United States: 54

France has roughly 1/5 the population of the United States and a much longer history so it should have more than 4 of the world's top 100 universities compared with America's 54. Clearly something is wrong with the French University system.

http://www.arwu.org/rank/2005/arwu2005_top100.htm

Maybe France needs to move more in the direction of the United States with regards to tertiary education and the United States should adopt a more French health care system.

People are getting more and more pissed off about taxes in the US, Canada, and elsewhere because we are seeing more money being spent to provide fewer legitimate services than ever before.

We actually have a program now that provides welfare recipients with free cars in my state. And what happened to the budget for this program during the current recession? The budget went up! By tens of millions of dollars!

I don't see ANY value to this program. I don't want ANY money from ANYONE to go to this program. It's insanity.

That's why the tax burden is feeling heavier and heavier. We're seeing less for our money. The quality of service is dropping and the cost is rising. Why wouldn't we be angry?

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'F')rance has roughly 1/5 the population of the United States and a much longer history so it should have more than 4 of the world's top 100 universities compared with America's 54. Clearly something is wrong with the French University system.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Turlox', '
')The Arizona income tax rate is not changing.

what all this mean at least to me is that wonderful 20 dollars that I received has now been cut to 15 dollars every two weeks in additional revenue.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')People are getting more and more pissed off about taxes in the US, Canada, and elsewhere because we are seeing more money being spent to provide fewer legitimate services than ever before.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'T')here was never a denial that you can receive more government services providing that you pay more taxes.
The formula is simple.
If you pay $1 in taxes you will receive $1 in government services.
If you pay $2 in taxes you will receive $2 in government services.
The problem I have with your argument is you make it sound like the Europeans have found some clever way to receive $2 in government services but only pay $1. Sorry I'm NOT buying that argument. I prefer the American system.

[jboogy]

Tyler, I knew you would invest the time and energy required to provide actual anecdotal and statistical evidence to support your opinions, why can't any of your droogs do the same?

I do not necessarily look to france to provide the idyllic contrast to the US, they definitely have some serious problems. But.... my parents hosted exchange students, as well as teachers from France every year in their home for several years, they loved many, many things about America, mostly our pop culture. They ALL were amazed at how much space we had, (how big our country is, the size of the houses) Things are more compact over there, you basically have cities/towns and rural, which is true of almost all of europe. But none of them ever expressed a desire to emigrate here, they all seemed very happy with the system they had and a little surprised that we received so little from the government in exchange for our taxes. ( I admit I instigated most of these conversations)
Bilingualism is common in Europe, ( that doesn't mean they all swing both ways CBXER so don't get excited)

Admittedly this story is of little import in and of itself, but it is part of a trend I've noticed. I have noticed many more of my countrymen lately saying they wanted to leave, and I never run into Europeans that have emigrated here. Now you will say that it's only lefties that express a desire to leave, (and good riddance), and you would be right. But many of these lefties are like me, people that love their country and are getting more despondent by the year because of the direction our country is going. And Tyler I think you know I'm not one who started singing and dancing when Obamatron got elected, "meet the new boss....same as the old boss". I think where we differ is that I am angry that my federal taxes go to prop up Boeing, Raytheon, Blackwater, General Dynamics, General Electric, Electric boat company(submarines), Lockheed, etc., etc., etc. Instead of helping me to afford health care, or college tuition, or some kind of safety net for my retirement so I don't have to move in with my kids because my 401k is worth 40% of what it once was. And since both parties keep taking my S.S. contributions out of the treasury and replacing them with worthless IOU's. Thank GAWD Bush didn't get privatization passed! Did you support S.S. privatization Tyler?.....

Where as you seem to be bothered by tax revenue going to help the poor, but have no problem having your money go to weapons and war. I mean WTF is that all about?

Tyler wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he net effect on society depends on how efficiently the government can provide those services relative to the free market.

[vision-master]

Tyler is a yuppie.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')It's when they take $5 from me and provide $2 worth of service to someone on the dole that bothers me.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')It's when they take $5 from me and provide $2 worth of service to someone on the dole that bothers me.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jboogy', '.')..
Where as you seem to be bothered by tax revenue going to help the poor, but have no problem having your money go to weapons and war. I mean WTF is that all about?
...

[jboogy]

odor-god wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat Troll Baiting argument of yours is older than the expired condoms you have stored in your shoe box.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'N')ot to get involved in a flame war...

But no government can ever provide something for "free". A "free" government service implies that someone is being taxed to pay for it.

The difference between France and the United States is that people in France are taxed at a much higher level in order to provide the additional government services. The net effect on society depends on how efficiently the government can provide those services relative to the free market. That's all that matters. It's not the level of taxation, it's the quality of the services.

If the government can take $1 from me and provide $1 worth of services to me, I probably won't care about the taxes. It's when they take $5 from me and provide $2 worth of service to someone on the dole that bothers me.

Obviously, there are some services that only a government can and should provide. National defense, for example, could never become an efficient free market. I shouldn't have to explain why.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '
')Sweden has:
low corporate tax rates = less than 30% (less than the USA)
high personal tax rates = almost 50% (much higher than the USA)
So the truth has been revealed.
Sweden has very "Conservative" tax rates for big businesses but very "Liberal" tax rates for individuals.