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THE Homeless Hooverville Tent City Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 08 May 2009, 09:43:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Prince', ' ')Also, what constitutes "rich"?



The top 2% of income earners.
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Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 08 May 2009, 10:03:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Prince', ' ')Also, what constitutes "rich"?



The top 2% of income earners.


2005 - Top 2% is $250,000 or higher
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Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 08 May 2009, 10:08:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')2005 - Top 2% is $250,000 or higher



Think you could scrape along on $250,000 or more per year?
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Prince » Fri 08 May 2009, 12:10:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oldchuck', 'T')o the frightened person who thinks homeless people are garbage: I read an article yesterday in a Canadian newspaper about a homeless guy who saved a kids life. The dumb kid, a teenager, was horsing around on a bridge over a raging, very cold river and fell in. The homeless guy jumped in, swam upstream a good distance, and pulled him out.


Cut the bullshit. For every 1 story like you describe, there are 20 others that explicate the crime, alcohol, drug abuse, pollution, assault, and general problems caused by these cretins. How much time do you spend a week (month, year, etc) with the homeless? Tell us about your neighborhood. I'm sure your little liberal paradise in Montpelier is just bursting at the seams with poor people and homeless, right? :roll:
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby oldchuck » Fri 08 May 2009, 13:42:55

Yeah, Prince, you're right. Little liberal (to radical) paradise. Population 8,000, no slums (although plenty of low income people), no segregation, a few interesting street people but no tent cities, about the biggest crime wave amounts a bunch of high school kids throwing wild parties and egging somebody's car, and a city (government and population, not much separation between them) actively implementing transition town projects. Tourists welcome.

I guess it's probably very different where you are and I'm sorry for that. I wish I could help.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 08 May 2009, 15:12:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Prince', '
')Cut the bullshit. For every 1 story like you describe, there are 20 others that explicate the crime, alcohol, drug abuse, pollution, assault, and general problems caused by these cretins.



What solution do you see for the growing number of homeless, besides calling them names and running away from them (making them someone else's problem)? You seem to be a conservative, so I guess you probably don't approve of welfare. What solution do you see to the problem of people who can't or won't work?
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 08 May 2009, 16:59:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Prince', '
')Cut the bullshit. For every 1 story like you describe, there are 20 others that explicate the crime, alcohol, drug abuse, pollution, assault, and general problems caused by these cretins.



What solution do you see for the growing number of homeless, besides calling them names and running away from them (making them someone else's problem)? You seem to be a conservative, so I guess you probably don't approve of welfare. What solution do you see to the problem of people who can't or won't work?


Prince the Punk don't care in the least.

Prince the Punk needs to be punked. :twisted:
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 08 May 2009, 19:01:33

Prince wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')You realize that the top 10% of wage earners foot nearly 75% of the bill, whereas the bottom 50% pay a mere 3%, and yet we need to pay more, right?


And the problem is? You can't tax a turnip my friend, so of course taxes come from the folks who just happen to be sitting on top of the cash. If you want the working classes to share an equal gross tax burden, then you're going to have to allow some of your wealth to be redistributed. There's only so much custard in the pie, you know.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne more factoid for you. You say tax the rich more. Did you know that if the rich were taxed at 85% AND the middle class were taxed at 65% that there still wouldn't be enough revenue to fund this newfound communism? So one more time... when is enough, enough?


What I'm in favor of is European-style socialism. That's right. I'm talking universal healthcare, four day workweeks, and at least four weeks annual paid vacation for every worker. And all the other goodies they get too. Reducing our workweek would also alleviate our massive unemployment. In these modern times of technological efficency / globalism, we simply do not have enough jobs to go around for every adult to work 40 - 60 hours per week.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for enjoying downtown, it's very simple. Once our city turns into a shithole (and it will happen sooner than later), we'll move. Probably in less than 5 years. If my parents didn't live near here I would have never moved back to this human cesspool, but family is very important to me.


Well, you're no pioneer there. Americans have been forever running to greener suburbs since the late 19th Century. It's so much easier to run away, isn't it? Well, that's getting more difficult you know. There's less open space than there used to be. City problems have come home to roost in neighborhoods that used to be suburbia, but are now just part of a sprawling concrete megapolis. That tentcity protest group I mentioned is a good example.. you can't run from a problem forever.

It's interesting how this trend has come full circle in the last couple decades. More and more, people are moving back into the city to get away from the trash in the suburbs! It's almost comical, this perennial running around the upper classes do. Perhaps we should just call it a day, and go full on Third World -- guarded, high walled estates where the unwashed masses may only enter to clean up. Hey, we can call them Green Zones.
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Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 09 May 2009, 09:24:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')2005 - Top 2% is $250,000 or higher



Think you could scrape along on $250,000 or more per year?


Out of the top 2%, 63% of those make over $1,000,000 year in my State.
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Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 09 May 2009, 09:30:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')Out of the top 2%, 63% of those make over $1,000,000 year in my State.



See, there's the problem - Prince just isn't rich enough! I bet even he could scrape along on a million a year! :-D
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Re: Suburbanties unite against tent cities

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 09 May 2009, 09:33:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')Out of the top 2%, 63% of those make over $1,000,000 year in my State.



See, there's the problem - Prince just isn't rich enough! I bet even he could scrape along on a million a year! :-D



Someone talked about these 'rich' $1,000,000+ year income folks on our State Budget Hearing lastnight.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Byron100 » Sat 09 May 2009, 09:54:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
What I'm in favor of is European-style socialism. That's right. I'm talking universal healthcare, four day workweeks, and at least four weeks annual paid vacation for every worker. And all the other goodies they get too. Reducing our workweek would also alleviate our massive unemployment. In these modern times of technological efficency / globalism, we simply do not have enough jobs to go around for every adult to work 40 - 60 hours per week.



Two thumbs on that, good guy. :-D That's exactly what we need in the USA - especially the part about 4-day work weeks and long vacations. Also, health care should be a right, not a privilege...perhaps it's time for a new Amendment or two to the US Constitution .

It's very, very true that there aren't enough jobs to go around for everybody...unless we find a way to cut the number of hours worked, we're always going to have an unemployment / underemployment problem.

If income taxes really are too much a burden, why not slap some hefty tariffs on imports like they used to in the old days? It's how they funded the entire federal government back in the days before they had an income tax. In any case, we're going to have to start making most of what we consume here in the USA - anyone that suggests otherwise is headed down a fool's road.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby ki11ercane » Sat 09 May 2009, 12:57:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'A')ctually I'm surprised that some enterprising homeless/poor haven't put together roving bands of shoplifters. Take ten people into a store, everyone grabs something and makes a mad dash for the door, surely lots of items are going to make it out. Or two people stage a fistfight/screaming fight diversion while others grab goods and head for the exits. No good way to police everything...


That reminds me of a dream I had once, when I was watching a news clip (sometime in the future) of a massive looting riot in which something like a thousand people flooded into a big-box store and cleaned it out, the sheer numbers of people totally overwhelming the store personnel.

Now, that'd be something to see in real life, huh? :shock:


Don't they call those Flash Mobs today?
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby ki11ercane » Sat 09 May 2009, 15:01:53

Universal Healthcare is great, but it's expensive. Even the lowest taxed citizen in Canada is taxed 15% federally and 10% provincially minimum. Coupled with a federal sales tax (5%) and all but one province having provincial sales tax (Alberta) and again on top of fuel tax, school tax, property tax, and probably twelve other taxes I can't recall, most Canadian citizens that work for a living give back almost 42% of their paychecks to the local, provincial, or federal government, or combined. Tax free day in Canada is May 31st. (yes, five months into the year)

If the law was changed to make work weeks 32 hours rather than 40, that cuts the government's income by 20%. That means taxes could go from 42% to 52%. They will have to make up the difference somewhere!

Socialism in some regards does work, but for Americans who are very pro-capitalist/pro-democratic this is a tough thing to accept. I have a friend that lives in California and year over year he keeps 15% more money than he did living here in Canada, and is happy for it. He health insurance is through his work, and he works in the trucking industry (Volvo as a Journeyman Heavy Mechanic). If he lost his job there goes his health insurance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
What I'm in favor of is European-style socialism. That's right. I'm talking universal healthcare, four day workweeks, and at least four weeks annual paid vacation for every worker. And all the other goodies they get too. Reducing our workweek would also alleviate our massive unemployment. In these modern times of technological efficency / globalism, we simply do not have enough jobs to go around for every adult to work 40 - 60 hours per week.



Two thumbs on that, good guy. :-D That's exactly what we need in the USA - especially the part about 4-day work weeks and long vacations. Also, health care should be a right, not a privilege...perhaps it's time for a new Amendment or two to the US Constitution .

It's very, very true that there aren't enough jobs to go around for everybody...unless we find a way to cut the number of hours worked, we're always going to have an unemployment / underemployment problem.

If income taxes really are too much a burden, why not slap some hefty tariffs on imports like they used to in the old days? It's how they funded the entire federal government back in the days before they had an income tax. In any case, we're going to have to start making most of what we consume here in the USA - anyone that suggests otherwise is headed down a fool's road.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby alokin » Sun 10 May 2009, 19:54:35

We're in Australia. We have medicare. While lots of people complaining a lot, I think it's overall OK. We don't pay too much taxes and at the end it's the same if you pay your private health insurance or taxes.
Maybe the problem in Canada is that too much money is wasted otherwise. (Much money is wasted here too).
The Americans have really the most miserable living standard of the whole developed world.

Import taxes on goods are really bad idea. One of the most destructive to manufacturing, because goods must not compete with imported good and so the standard gets lower and lower and it is more and more difficult to export anything.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby patience » Mon 11 May 2009, 08:51:50

alokin said:

"Import taxes on goods are really bad idea."

Amen to that! Tariffs beget trade wars, a la Smoot-Hawley tariffs imposed in the 1930's depression, that added the US woes. However, I agree that the US govt should be financed by tariffs, as it orginally was, the result being a VERY small govt. Its' only valid responsibility was, per Thomas Jefferson, national defense. That meant a navy to prevent smuggling and evading the tariffs. So be it.

As to health care, I like the idea of hospitals being non-profit, as many were in 1950 here in the US. My wife said that in her Catholic grade school, one of her teachers (a Nun), accurately predicted the mess of US health care back in the late 50's/early 60's. Said that when hospitals became for-profit, noone would be able to afford them. Too much of the high-tech health "care" we get now is superfluous BS "tests" and procedures designed to make a profit on expensive equipment bought with that in mind. I have some personal experience with this.

The Nun had it right. Just change the finance picture, and it will all get better again.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 11 May 2009, 09:02:33

With medical errors and hospital infections being among the leading causes of death in the US, we'd probably all do better to avoid hospitals as much as possible.

Despite extraordinary effort and the best available treatments, the hospital was not able to avoid killing my step mother by infection.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 11 May 2009, 09:07:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ith medical errors and hospital infections being among the leading causes of death in the US, we'd probably all do better to avoid hospitals as much as possible.

Despite extraordinary effort and the best available treatments, the hospital was not able to avoid killing my step mother by infection.


Here ye, here ye!

What is it now, about 100,000 people die each year of infections and accidents in US hospitals, not of which caused them to go to the hospital?

If there was a rumor that 100,000 people might be killed in a terrorist attack, I'm sure there would be somebody getting waterboarded or rendered.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 11 May 2009, 09:20:09

Aproximateley 195,000 Americans die from hospital errors every year.

Hospital infections and physician errors are in the top 4 causes of death. You'd think with every other illness under the sun having an interest group (cancer, heart disease, on and on).. someone would be making a peep about what amounts to death by malpractice.

You don't hear much about it though, do you? Seems like nobody wants to admit that yes, Virginia, hospitals kill.
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Re: Economic casualties pile into tent cities

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 11 May 2009, 09:27:45

I Know a Doctor that 'blew the whistle'. The medical community is like the Police Force, as they cover for themselves. She was paid off and black listed. She went back to school and became an Attorney and now is teaching collage.
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