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Middle ground between believers & deniers

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 26 Apr 2009, 17:31:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '
')That's my vision of a post peak oil world.



Yeah, a lot of people seem to like the feudalism thing for some reason.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Byron100 » Sun 26 Apr 2009, 18:16:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '
')That's my vision of a post peak oil world.


Yeah, a lot of people seem to like the feudalism thing for some reason.


That'll never happen here in the US of A, that's for sure. Too many guns. Too many people willing to die as opposed to being made a slave toiling the fields. Unlike the feudal lords of old, the rich of today are just too exposed to the infuriated "new poor" to survive for long.

The only kind of world we're going to have after the collapse is one in which nearly everyone is poor or at least pretending to be poor...LOL. And that's how it should be, in my opinion. Then maybe we can all get along for once. :-D
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Sun 26 Apr 2009, 18:56:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, a lot of people seem to like the feudalism thing for some reason.
That'll never happen here in the US of A, that's for sure.
Never say, "never!" In my experience, "never" is a very long time, and anything could happen.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo many guns.
"Too many guns" means enough guns for people to hire guns.

I've never understood how anyone could think guns solve the money inequity problem. If anything, it amplifies it. Why do people think rich people can't shoot? Take Dick Chaney (please!), for example. His "paycheck slave" even apologized for having the bad grace to get shot by him!

Here's the situation. You're hungry. Your family is hungry. You have a gun. You can a) keep your gun hidden and slave away for some rich dude, knowing that if he gets too uppity, you'll off him, or b) you can use your gun to take food from someone else who has food knowing that someone with a bigger gun, or more ammunition, or more guns, will most likely take your food away, or c) you can find a rich dude who will feed and house you in a better-than-average manner in exchange for your using your gun to keep other people with guns from taking his food away.

In "a," you're merely a serf with aspirations. In "b," you're just a criminal. In "c," you're gainfully employed. Why do you think the US can get away with being the world's bully via an all-volunteer military?

(BTW: arms sales are up 40% in the US. People are getting ready for something, even if they're not quite sure what!)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo many people willing to die as opposed to being made a slave toiling the fields.
It seems to me that most people have made themselves slaves already -- slave to a paycheck.

The key to being a feudal lord is not to have people suffering, but to make sure they have just enough to say, "It could be worse!" That seems to be what capitalism is all about.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nlike the feudal lords of old, the rich of today are just too exposed to the infuriated "new poor" to survive for long.
Unlike the serfs of old, the paycheck slaves of today willingly take on the yoke of debt that keeps them enslaved. I don't expect this to change. But I could be wrong.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Byron100 » Sun 26 Apr 2009, 19:32:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, a lot of people seem to like the feudalism thing for some reason.
That'll never happen here in the US of A, that's for sure.
Never say, "never!" In my experience, "never" is a very long time, and anything could happen.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo many guns.
"Too many guns" means enough guns for people to hire guns.

I've never understood how anyone could think guns solve the money inequity problem. If anything, it amplifies it. Why do people think rich people can't shoot? Take Dick Chaney (please!), for example. His "paycheck slave" even apologized for having the bad grace to get shot by him!

Here's the situation. You're hungry. Your family is hungry. You have a gun. You can a) keep your gun hidden and slave away for some rich dude, knowing that if he gets too uppity, you'll off him, or b) you can use your gun to take food from someone else who has food knowing that someone with a bigger gun, or more ammunition, or more guns, will most likely take your food away, or c) you can find a rich dude who will feed and house you in a better-than-average manner in exchange for your using your gun to keep other people with guns from taking his food away.

In "a," you're merely a serf with aspirations. In "b," you're just a criminal. In "c," you're gainfully employed. Why do you think the US can get away with being the world's bully via an all-volunteer military?

(BTW: arms sales are up 40% in the US. People are getting ready for something, even if they're not quite sure what!)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo many people willing to die as opposed to being made a slave toiling the fields.
It seems to me that most people have made themselves slaves already -- slave to a paycheck.

The key to being a feudal lord is not to have people suffering, but to make sure they have just enough to say, "It could be worse!" That seems to be what capitalism is all about.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nlike the feudal lords of old, the rich of today are just too exposed to the infuriated "new poor" to survive for long.Unlike the serfs of old, the paycheck slaves of today willingly take on the yoke of debt that keeps them enslaved. I don't expect this to change. But I could be wrong.

You're right to say "never"...it really is a long time...lol. I tend to use that term in the context of my own lifetime, i.e. up to about mid-century or so. After that, I really don't care too much. :razz:

Really, a great deal depends on how quickly the collapse unfolds. If it all goes down in a decade or two, than all bets are off for establishing any kind of stable pecking order. Chaos would reign supreme.

But if the decline is gradual enough (like spanning generations) then you might see the evolution of some sort of feudal system, coupled with trade guilds occupying towns and villages.

The "paycheck" slaves you refer to today are that way due to all the shiny toys that being in debt brings them - the 4 BRM 3 Bath McMansion. The 52" Plasma TV. The shiny new Ford Expedition sitting in the driveway. All bought on credit, of course. But it's a heckuva way to be a slave! LOL.

Increasing the standard of living is gravy for the masses - so what if people have to bow down to their capitalist masters to get their hands on the things they want. You have to admit, it's not a bad life by any stretch of the imagination.

Maintaining the same standard of living isn't so bad either. Many of the slaves that worked on the plantations of the 19th Century never gave any thought to rebelling against their masters, as they had their needs taken care of, and they had every reason to expect the same for the rest of their lives. Having true security is a biggie in people's hierarchy of needs.

But when it comes to a declining standard of living, especially if it comes fast, then it's Katy bar the door time. That stuff is just not going to go down well for just about anybody, rich or poor or anyone just trying to survive another day.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 09:38:15

Still, I wish the "it's my vision of the future" folks would take a look at other possible visions.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby odegaard » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 14:19:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')till, I wish the "it's my vision of the future" folks would take a look at other possible visions.
The reason why I have such difficulty seeing "other possible visions" is because my observation of society gives me NO reason to.

For example:
1) when gasoline went up in price everybody was screaming for more oil refineries
2) when food was going up in price everybody was proposing ways to increase food production like subsidies
3) when electricity was going up, new construction projects for power plants were put on the fast track

Do you see the pattern? Every time there's a problem society always tries to solve it by:
building bigger, faster, more complex, more technology, more subsidies, more manpower, more, more, more
Post peak oil is NOT about more, more, more......it's less, less, less.

Mainstream Environmentalism is no solution. They've all been brainwashed because they have drank out of the same kool-aid bowl. The one that is labeled "infinity growth and technology"
For example an environmentalist would say put more insulation in your home to save on heating and buy a hybrid car to save on gas
You notice they don't say put on a sweater and buy a smaller car.
see what I mean?

addon:
That's why I see a hard crash.
However who knows what will happen 100 or 200 years from now.
So maybe you're right Ludi.
Perhaps the ultimate end result will be your vision of reality (what's it called Permaculture?)
....
....
....
first there must be a hard crash then you can have the soft and flully scenario. :mrgreen:
"They're not too big to fail, they're too big to bail out!" Peter Schiff
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 16:36:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', ' ')(what's it called Permaculture?)


I also see a hard crash. *shrug*

Just suggesting those who might be interested might want to look into other visions.
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