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Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 14:15:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'T')hat's one of those fatuous arguments people use to defend the actions of their ancestors in taking the land of indiginous peoples. It's not right, it's not smart and it's not something to be proud of.


No Ebyss, it isn't something to be proud of. Neither is it something to be ashamed of. Just because one group's ancestors "won" a particular skirmish in the battle for survival does not mean that their descendants now "owe" the descendants of the "losers". The Liberal guilt-tripping needs to stop...
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Unread postby Phil » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 15:22:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')his makes no sense. You've agreed that the the desert is more diverse and perhaps more ecologically significant. Is it the bio-mass of the forest that impresses you?

pete


First, I don't claim to be well-educated or expert with regard to biomes and ecosystems. Though I have watched an awful lot of 'nature' telvevision programming in my life, which has given me some perspective. Remember "Wild Discovery."

Your question depends on how you define "ecological significance." If it's defined by simply the number of species in a given area, then yes I suppose places like San Diego County are more significant than your typical pine forest.

If it's defined by sheer volume of bio-mass, then a forest is more signifcant.

If it's defined by any given biome's ability to affect change on surrounding biomes, then I would consider a forest more important, due to its influence over weather patterns- especially if it were denuded. The only thing you could do to change weather patterns in a desert would be to grow a forest. Though I suppose a city like Las Vegas or Pheonix with its 'heat island' does have some effect as well.

My opinion, and I'm open to criticism, is that, generally speaking, forests are more important. Why? Because they're more valuable to humans and other higher order organisms. Plus, they're more beautiful.

I would feel less bad about plowing over 100 square miles of desert, than doing the same to a forest.

*My avatar is eating his keyboard.
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Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 01:40:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'T')hat's one of those fatuous arguments people use to defend the actions of their ancestors in taking the land of indiginous peoples. It's not right, it's not smart and it's not something to be proud of.


No Ebyss, it isn't something to be proud of. Neither is it something to be ashamed of. Just because one group's ancestors "won" a particular skirmish in the battle for survival does not mean that their descendants now "owe" the descendants of the "losers". The Liberal guilt-tripping needs to stop...

There is a difference between a "battle for survival" and imperial conquest. Should the Germans and Japanese stop their liberal guilt tripping over WWII? Ask the Jews or Chinese.
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Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 02:09:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'S')o, you don't know much about biomes and ecosystems except what you watch on "Wild Discovery." I can believe that. It is pretty apparent Phil.


No, "Wild Discovery" is not the only source of my ecological education, and I didn't say it was. Though I would consider that show and others like it (National Geographic, etc.) as primary sources of that education, along with the reading I've done on my own, and formal schooling.

Just how is my alleged ignorance so readily apparent?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut you are an expert on human intelligence


No, but I know what the experts, and the science, have to say about it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')and general worth. You are such an expert that you would withold a promise of a decent life to one trying their damndest.


I'm not obligated to welcome into my country millions of dumbass Mexicans who had too many kids and now can't bother to educate themselves and reform their country; and who instead, choose to come here and degrade mine.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') guess you are a white god, huh?


Are you jealous?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you one of those higher order organisms?

Wow, touche! You got me there! You're really amazingly clever.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Moron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', 'I') would feel less bad about plowing over 100 square miles of desert, than doing the same to a forest. why is that? Are they pretty? Do you like flowers?

Don't make me repeat myself. And yes, flowers are very lovely. They smell nice too.
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Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 02:52:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'w')ild kingdom and national geographic. you shure do get around phil. do yo live on keyboards" do they taste yummy? do you really have hairy arms?


Moron.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Moron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', 'I')'m not obligated to welcome into my country millions of dumbass Mexicans who had too many kids and now can't bother to educate themselves and reform their country; and who instead, choose to come here and degrade mine.
who is degrading whom? phil


de·grade Audio pronunciation of "degrade" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-grd)
v. de·grad·ed, de·grad·ing, de·grades
v. tr.

1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants.
3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
4. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency.
5. To impair in physical structure or function.
6. Geology. To lower or wear by erosion or weathering.
7. To cause (an organic compound) to undergo degradation.

Like I said, Mexicans are degrading this country.
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get real

Unread postby AnnaLivia » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 12:08:54

this thread is hilarious! it's just such a perfect example of myopic vision and diabolic stupidity!

are some of you seriously going to go on and on about the dire problems this country faces from the litter left by illegal immigrants whilst you ignore...not one mention of it yet...the ever-escalating raping of our soil and our air and our water done by the corporatists with the help of lame and self-serving politicos? which mess can simply be picked up, and which mess will be an everlasting life-shortening legacy to the unborn?

for just one example, Jack Welch (of GE) made a stratospheric fortune by robbing the future (and us) of a safe and clean environment (google the lawsuits and convictions of GE), and your worry is pants decomposing in the desert?

ROFLMAO!
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Re: get real

Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 12:37:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AnnaLivia', 'a')re some of you seriously going to go on and on about the dire problems this country faces from the litter left by illegal immigrants


Who's going on and on about litter? I'm not.
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Unread postby Chicken_Little » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 12:49:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')hy would someone crossing a burning desert want to go naked?

Maybe they're taking their pants off to get f&%ked up the b$*thole by the white oppressor?

Or could it have something to do with a swim across the Rio Grande that we stole from them?
pete


Thats a bullshit argument. Based on that, America owns...what, 75% of Europe?
PAY UP BASTARDS!! I want my free cheese, Ferrari's and wine!! And gimme an Aston Martin while your at it.

:-D



Nobody stole Europe from America. The ancestors of Americans were thrown out of Europe.

We British sent a bunch of criminals over to the colonies because nobody else wanted to go there and we didn't want them here. Later they mutated into the biggest criminal organisation the world has ever seen.

Boy was that a mistake. We should have hung them.
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Unread postby TWilliam » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 15:59:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'T')here is a difference between a "battle for survival" and imperial conquest. Should the Germans and Japanese stop their liberal guilt tripping over WWII? Ask the Jews or Chinese.


Only in magnitude. And yes, they should. I owe absolutely nothing to any person just because some ancestor of mine conquered, killed, exploited or otherwise degraded the lives of any of their ancestors. Nor does anyone else. Those that think they deserve never-ending reparations for something that they didn't even directly experience need to get off their @sses and do something useful, instead of forever bitching to get a free ride.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'W')e British sent a bunch of criminals over to the colonies because nobody else wanted to go there and we didn't want them here.


Yea. Mostly those guilty of the crime of independent thought...
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Unread postby Chicken_Little » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 19:23:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'W')e British sent a bunch of criminals over to the colonies because nobody else wanted to go there and we didn't want them here.


Yea. Mostly those guilty of the crime of independent thought...



i won't say you're a fuckwit... though many would...


LoL.

It's true dude. We sent convicts to the colonies for many years just like we did in Australia.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Georgia Colony, one of the Southern colonies, was the last North American colony established by the British in what was to become the United States.

Founded by James Oglethorpe, the corporate charter for the Province of Georgia was signed by King George II of Great Britain on April 21, 1732 (The colony was named for George.) The original charter specified the colony as being between the Savannah and Altamaha rivers, up to their headwaters (the headwaters of the Altamaha are on the Ocmulgee River), then extending westward "sea to sea". The area within the charter had previously been part of the original grant of the Carolina Colony.

The Privy Council finalized the document on June 9, 1732. The council of trustees were unable to manage the proprietary colony so the charter lapsed and on June 23, 1752 the trustees submitted a deed of reconveyance to the crown, one year before the expiry of the charter. On January 7, 1755 official ceased to be a trustee colony and became a crown colony.

The colony's original purpose, according to Oglethorpe's plan, was as a penal colony for the resettlement of people in debtor prison. The first convicts arrived on February 12, 1733, a day still celebrated as Georgia Day. For half a century the colony was an important means of relieving overcrowding in British prisons; after the British lost control of the province they created the first colony in Australia to serve the same purpose.

From 1732 until 1758 the minor civil divisions were districts and towns. In 1758 the province of Georgia was divided into eight parishes, plus another four added in 1765; in 1777, the original eight counties of the State of Georgia were created.

In practice settlement in the colony was limited to the near vicinity of the Savannah River. The area of western area of the colony remained the territory of the Creek Indian Confederation until after the American Revolutionary War, when it was ceded to the U.S. in 1805.
#



So I think you'll find history proves me correct.



Maybe you missed history class along with geography and english like the rest of your compatriots?

Not to worry, you in the colonies may forget but we don't.

Once a criminal, always a criminal.
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Unread postby Phil » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 21:00:06

"Debtor's prison." Wow, what horrible savages they must have been.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')eorgia's population grew steadily from 1733, reaching around 40,000 people in 1776. [Source: Coleman, Kenneth. A History of Georgia. Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1991, p. 54]


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1')760 George III becomes King of England. Colonial population 1.6 million.


Even if all of those 40,000 Georgians were prisoners, which is not at all likely, then 2.5% of those early colonists were English "criminals." It's probably more like less than one percent.

By your reasoning, if less than one percent of Britons are homosexual pedophiles, then all Britons are homosexual pedophiles.
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Unread postby TWilliam » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 21:30:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'i') won't say you're a fuckwit...


Oooo... how original. "I can't argue, so I'll call you names." :roll:

I'm quite aware that many of the first English inhabitants of the New World were prisoners of the Crown. That does not necessarily mean that all of them were criminals.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', '"')Debtor's prison." Wow, what horrible savages they must have been.


No, most often they were political dissidents who expressed their dissent by refusing to pay taxes to a certain typically arrogant prick named George...
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Unread postby Chicken_Little » Mon 18 Apr 2005, 23:03:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'i') won't say you're a fuckwit...


Oooo... how original. "I can't argue, so I'll call you names." :roll:

I'm quite aware that many of the first English inhabitants of the New World were prisoners of the Crown. That does not necessarily mean that all of them were criminals.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', '"')Debtor's prison." Wow, what horrible savages they must have been.


No, most often they were political dissidents who expressed their dissent by refusing to pay taxes to a certain typically arrogant prick named George...





The !8th Century, known as the Age of Reason, climaxed in its ultimate expresssion in the American Revolution.

Unfortunately it all went a bit pear-shaped after that.

The End.
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Re: get real

Unread postby AnnaLivia » Tue 19 Apr 2005, 15:09:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Actually Anna, this thread is not hilarious. Who do you think Jack Welsh calls on for muscle? How does the corporate elite maintain control? What tactics do the rich and wealthy employ to manipulate the masses. Who are the storm-troopers of the occupation--current and future?

pete


pete, i guess (tell me if i'm wrong) you're saying it's tragic rather than funny that so many people are afraid of what has been manufactured for them to be afraid of...while they remain unaware of the facts and avoid the big picture and stick their heads in the sand when it comes to what would sanely be prioritized?

all i can say is, i don't just sit back, do nothing, and laugh. but i DO laugh while i study such stupidity. it's a lot better for your heart than constant tears are...
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Unread postby rallyman » Wed 20 Apr 2005, 03:50:01

Late to the thread, but.......
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', 'W')hile a patch of desert could potentially have more species of organisms than an equal-sized patch of forest, the forest will certainly have many more organisms in total. For this reason, I feel less bad about humans "trashing" a desert than a forest or prairie. Though I understand that the risk to biodiversity caused by human activity might be greater in the desert, where organisms of any particular species could be less numerous and more fragile than in a forest.

Your main point seems to be that deserts need some protection, and I agree.


Uhhh...Phil? The other thing (the main thing??) that needs to be considered about "trashing the desert" vs. a forest etc. is that a forest will recover significantly quicker than a desert will...did you know that the remains of centuries old Indian fires can still be found as blackened spots on the desert floor? How long do you suppose something like that remains VISIBLE on the forest floor? All that SHIT dumped in the desert will be there for MANY YEARS [smilie=eusa_sick.gif] to come due to the fact that it will not corrode/decompose due to the desert environment -there's a reason why they take old airplanes to the desert to store them!

AMARC

I've kept in mind your last sentence as I wrote this part, just wanted to make a small point to you for your consideration.....I think we're mostly on the same side

.......now on to the good shit....

To those of you who dispute the "taking of land in war", etc....only one thing to say......

The Golden Rule Of History..... Those with the weapons make the rules.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', 'N')obody stole Europe from America. The ancestors of Americans were thrown out of Europe.


Uhhh, dude, the idea that SpecOp was getting at was that "we" essentially reclaimed all of europe (and the Pacific) during not one, but two World Wars. Say what you want, but if it wasn't for the 'bloody Yanks' europe would have been a piss poor mess...and under Axis domination. We took it back....and then returned it to the rightful owners instead of keeping it for ourselves.....that's where the stealing it from the Americans comes from.....I agree with the idea, but since we gave it back willingly...I can't completely defend the idea....

If you don't like the theory....see The Golden Rule of History above......

For those of you who wonder about the rise and fall of different countries and economies.....A case in point....Rhodesia...an idyllic little country in southern Africa doing it's own thing (none of the apartheid stuff from S.A. mind you)...rural and mostly agrarian, but with a growing manufacturing base....the decide to separate from the UK and go it on their own...the UK (later joined by the US under Carter and Andrew Young) decides that they can't have white Africans running a government over black Africans - never mind the fact that the white Africans had been in this part of the world for many many years by now.....so the difference between black Africans and white Africans is like the difference between Native Americans and Americans (in the U.S.)....anyway, I digress....so everyone screws with the poor little Rhodesia government until it finally collapses under the combined weight of the UK, US, etc....(not without a grand fight I must say!). So now what do you have there?

Current Economic and Political Debate in Zimbabwe

The ZIMBABWE Situation

....human rights in Zimbabwe

And that fuckstick Robert Mugabe is still running around murdering his own people while his (his???) country goes down the shitter....... Assholes...... thats typical of what happens, and will happen.....

And there is always someone running around blaming EVERYTHING on the corporatists/globalists/industrialists/insert what you want-ists.... it's human nature....people are assholes generally speaking and they will do as they can do whenever they can get away with it.

You want to talk about what GE has done wrong....let's look at what the people who supposedly have the environments best interests at heart....

Lets see now....Greenpeace.....bombing ships and sinking them....ship sinks, oil leaks into environment.....not to mention all the havoc spread on the sealife as the bomb explodes, etc....then there is ELF torching cars...you got any idea how much bad crap is in an automobile? There's a reason why firefighters will typically not go near a burning car unless it is absolutely necessary....all that plastic and wanna-be rubberized stuff in there kills you.....

Of course the argument is that there is not that much 'bad stuff' being released during those incidents compared to what the (insert your own -ist here)are doing daily.....momma always told me....two wrongs don't make a right.....

The bottom line? It may not matter if we fuck up the deserts and the oceans and the forests........
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')om's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.
Learn to swim.

Aenima - Tool

(Don't know who Mom is?...Mother Nature mebbe?) I think there is a reason that global scale catastrophies come along every so often....you know...ice ages...comets...asteroids...VEI-8 volcanic eruptions... etc... etc... Just "Mom's" way of spring cleaning...

Have a nice night everyone and remember...not only is there a restless caldera volcano under Yellowstone National Park ( Yellowstone Volcano Observatory ) that could obliterate life as we know it, but there is another in the Long Valley in California ( Long Valley (Volcano) Observatory ) (think Mammoth Mtn)...and there's always the undiscovered asteroid that is addressed "To Whom It May Concern" ( Near Earth Object Program )...with that in mind......sleep well everyone...... :-D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')on't just call me pessimist.
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