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The trash illegals leave behind

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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 16:57:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'O')f course it won't shut up the angry entiled types who just love to have someone weaker than them to hate.

pete


Moronic straw man argument.

So if my neighbor breaks into my house to eat my food and use my stuff because he was too ignorant to secure his own, and I try to stop him, I must be an "angry, entitled type." If anyone harbors a misguided sense of entitlementin this case, it's certainly the Mexicans.

How silly and selfish of me to desire my government to implement and enforce intelligent immigration policy that doesn't pander to established dogma.

Of course, everyone who dares to oppose low IQ third-world illegal immigration must certainly just be a contemptible bully. After all, what reasonable person would have a problem with gangs and ghettos, teen pregnancy, high school dropouts, and all that wonderful "diversity."

If there's anything I hate as much as a Bible-thumping "Conservative", it's a brainwashed egalitarian, politically-correct pansy "Liberal."
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Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 18:00:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter all, what reasonable person would have a problem with gangs and ghettos, teen pregnancy, high school dropouts, and all that wonderful "diversity."


Yeah. Those damn savages. You don't see any of those things from good 'ol white folks. They should be grateful we took their land and showed them how it ought to be done.
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Re: The trash illegals leave behind

Unread postby k_semler » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 18:31:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')r could it have something to do with a swim across the Rio Grande that we stole from them?


We didn't steal it. We fought in a war and won that land.

The US doesn't approve when other countries do that. Except Israel, of course.


Oh well, if the war was fought and won, then it should not be a big deal. History is written from the prespective of the winning parties. We won, so we wrote the history about many wars that we have been in. The losing side rarely gets heard.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twillian', '
')Gee, maybe that'd free up enough capital that some American workers could receive a better wage, thus enabling them to work fewer hours, thence finding themselves with some extra time in which to grow their own salads... Shock

Nah... probably not. More than likely the corporate honchos would just pocket the extra dough and find someplace six thousand miles away to import their salads from...


I agree 100%. Globalisation will lead to the downfall of what once were soviergn nations. If a product can be produced domestically, then it should. China can manufacture its own cars, they have no use for Chevy. We can produce almost anything we want to, so we have no use for the global economy. If it would not be for the shutting down of our factories during the 70's and 80's, we would be largly self-reliant, (except on petoleum products).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', 'W')ell if you look at test scores & level of educational attainment, fertility & illegitimacy rates, crime & incarceration rates, it seems to matter a great deal what "color" they are.

Oh but I'm sure that has nothing to with genes or heredity, it's all the white man's fault.


As far as I am aware, Asians usually excel in educational ventures, hispanics have the second highest rate for illigitimate births followed closely by blacks, blacks have a very high crime rate. They are a little over 10% of the population, but commit 35% of all crimes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'S')o your problem is what? The litter? I've seen more trash in a NASCAR infield.


Partially, yes. If I were to go to your home and dump my weekly trash all over your yard, would you have a problem with my improper disposal of trash, or the fact that it is all over your yard? Chances are, the fact that it is on your yard has a greater portion to do with it. This is how I feel about the nation. This is America, and we try and keep it at least sanitary around here. If they want to live in a ball of filth, they should stay in Mexico.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'W')e got TIRED of paying decent wages to unionized meatpackers in the industrialized northern cities. So we busted the unions, moved the shops to Dixie and lo and behold we can't find anyone to work those jobs. Now we have Mexican communities forming in Arkansas.

We ENCOURAGE continued immigration on a YEARLY basis so that our crops get picked. We have done this 1942 because its easier for our farmer owners to pay substandard wages than try and pass on the true cost for that 3000 mile caesar salad. Costs that, by the way, are borne me as a tax payer living in one of those ag labor counties.

We PROMOTE immigrant growth in the construction work field, because they work harder, cheaper and complain less than us "whiny" citizens.

We EXPECT cheap service sector help so we can continue to live our narcisistic lives and not worry about doing our own lawns, cleaning our homes offices and hotels, serving us our food so we do not have to spend our precious time doing or hard earned money paying for those tasks.

Then, while we put our focus on the border, we ignore the thousands of unscrupulous employers that SEEK out and HIRE these individuals. When we do "shockingly" discover illegals working in a factory or cleaning a hotel room, we deport those miscreants and give a slap on the wrist to the employer. Look at Walmart's fine for utilizing illegals. TEN Million bucks! It probably still was cheaper to pay the fine and pay the illegals than it was to hire citizens and pay them even the Walmart wages and benefits. Did anyone go to jail? ANYONE?

Nor are we concerned with the economic forces that drove them here. Ever wonder why we have so many poor farmers come here from Mexico? I'll tell you... NAFTA...yeah that "great sucking sound." Well one of the many "benefits" of the trade agreement was the flooding of Mexico with cheap petro-CORN from Iowa, displacing many small Mexican farmers. Prior to NAFTA, Mexico was self-sufficient in corn. Now they are dependent on our imports. Add in the growth of US style grocery operations that focus on mass-produced produce from the cheapest possible source whenever possible (which usually precludes local sales to grocery chains) and what's your average campesino to do? Those that didnt wind up in the slums of Mexico City will inevitably end up picking raisins in Selma or lettuce in Salinas. And the best part about this--the US Government WELCOMES this. You CAN'T do illegal worker roundups in the Imperial, Central or Salinas valleys of California or you will cross some very powerful people and corporations. Ain't globalization grand??

Economists certainly must be in awe with how efficient they have made everything.

I don't disagree with the assesments on how illegal immigration is impacting US society or the environment. Here in the central valley, it is one of the SINGLE most important factor driving population growth. It's not healthy for anyone. Immigration does not help out the immigrants. It depresses wages for the least skilled and the most vulnerable citizens of this country. It allows the donor country to skirt making the hard decisions that helped drive immigrants here in the first place. Sure we pay less for our food, our lawn care or our vacation. But we pay out of the wazoo for the rest.

Then we make crossing back and forth so difficult, illegals would rather settle here rather than risk getting caught or getting dead when crossing. Any surprise that "guest worker" or "temporary help" becomes tomorrow's new residents and next decade's new citizens. Before long whole families relocate here to join the original workers. Any wonder why we have to build so many schools?

Illegal immigration doesn't benefit anyone. Anyone other than those that use their labor. They benefit--at our expense. WHere's the outrage?

Next time you are mad at Juan Perez for sneaking into this country to harvest your food, think of (farmer) John Smith that demanded that low cost labor supply in the first place.

Next time you feel the need to bitch about those damn dirty illegals, consider who encouraged them to come here in the first place.


I agree with you 100%, if the federal government wished to seal off the southern border, we could do it. Just look at the DMZ between PRK and the DPRk. It is the most heavily patrolled border in the world, and it is almost impossible for anything to move through that reigon without somebody seeing it. The federal government has left the border open on purpose, and it is only leading to the degregation of the USA. We are killing our own nation, and if this keeps up, we will be no longer be a superpower, let alone a first world nation. I want the poverty due to corruption to stay in Mexico, we do not need it here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'I')t's ironic really...Mexico invited the Anglo settlers to settle Texas to solve a perceived problem and wound up losing part of their country in the process.

We INVITED Mexicans to settle in California (and elsewhere) to solve a perceived problem. Will we lose part of our country in the bargain.

Payback. Aint it a bitch

I agree, we are killing off our own sovernity. Soon I expect we will form a coalition similoar to the EU, but no formal agreement will happen to that effect. The underminement of our sovernity is just a plot to further weaken our national independence to embrace us into the new global economy. Welcome to the NWO.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Thanks pea-jay for your angry eloquence. Of course it won't shut up the angry entiled types who just love to have someone weaker than them to hate. I'd rather expose the powerful and corrupt.


That dosen't take much work. Just wait until a government official, public worker, actor, or news caster is shown on the television or aired on the radio. Chances are, if they are in the line of politics, they are corrupted indivduals that will take every chance to undermine our domestic economy in favor of the globalist empire.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'Y')eah. Those damn savages. You don't see any of those things from good 'ol white folks. They should be grateful we took their land and showed them how it ought to be done.

Although white people do commit more crimes, hispanic and black persons commit an abmormally high percentage of them for thier share in the population. Thier per capita rate is much higher than that of whites. Just look up the official statistics on the FBI site, and compare it to the 2000 census. Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, Asians, and "other" lead the crime in per capita rate..
Here Lies the United States Of America.

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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 18:46:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'T')hey should be grateful we took their land


Who's they? You seem certain these two contintents were settled by only one group of immigrants whose ancestors all hold title to this land in perpetuity. The various Indian groups didn't seem to think that way when they were warring over territory before our arrival. By your logic, Ireland isn't your land either since you're probably not a direct descendant of the first humans to occupy Ireland.

Moreover, it's quite possible that this contintent was peopled by various routes and from different continents over the last 20,000 years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut indirect evidence for Paleolithic ocean travel has been mounting. Although no boats have been found, we now know that by at least 40,000 years ago, watercraft carried a founding population to Australia. By 28,000 years ago, flintknappers were collecting raw materials from islands far off the Japanese coast. And closer to Spain, Paleolithic peoples inhabited some of the Mediterranean islands at least 14,000 years ago.
Solutrean peoples could have used this knowledge of watercraft to travel and exploit marine resources, which would have been especially important during the last glacial maximum, about 18,000 years ago, when most of Europe was covered with ice and competition for diminishing land resources must have been intense. Given these facts, we believe the hypothesis of a western Old World ancestry for Clovis should be reconsidered.
To determine whether the idea was worth additional study, we examined archaeological collections in Spain, France, and Portugal, looking for technological affinities between the European Upper Paleolithic and Clovis. Our cursory examination revealed an amazing correspondence between Solutrean and Clovis; in fact, Solutrean has more in common with Clovis than with Paleolithic technologies that followed it in Europe.
Solutrean and Clovis flintknappers used nearly identical stoneworking technologies. We observed a high degree of correspondence between stone and bone tools, as well as engraved limestone tablets, and caching of extra large bifaces and other tool stock. The Solutrean toolkit is, with a few exceptions, nearly identical to that of Clovis. Although some of the Solutrean concave-base projectile points are heavily thinned, none that we saw exhibited a well-developed Clovis-style flute. Clovis assemblages lack shouldered points and the Solutrean laurel-leaf knife.
A Solutrean origin for the Clovis culture seems a more parsimonious explanation of the evidence than an Asian ancestry. Certainly, if Solutrean industries were found in Siberia, no one would question their historical relationship with Clovis.
The ultimate test of this hypothesis may be found in genetic research on ancient human remains. Michael Brown and colleagues reported in 1998 that mitochrondrial-DNA haplogroup X (a genetic marker of population groups) is found in low frequencies in both European and Native American populations, but not among Asians. This indicated to them that some of the American founders may have come from Europe between 36,000 and 12,000 years ago.
Regardless of whether a Solutrean-Clovis link is eventually proven, exploring this hypothesis should increase our understanding of the development of technological innovations and broaden our knowledge of early peoples of the New World. Clovis and Beyond


Most of these people who are invading us from Latin America are not descendants of any North American tribes who were eliminated upon our arrival.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'a')nd showed them how it ought to be done.


You mean by creating the most powerful and technologically advanced civilization on Earth? Of course, I concede, it's unfortunate that we are so wasteful and shortsighted.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'Y')eah. Those damn savages. You don't see any of those things from good 'ol white folks.


Let's see if you say that only in jest after you spend some time around them, and know what the hell you're talking about. Quite clearly you do not at this time. I never claimed that white people are perfect, moron. There are stupid, violent, trashy white people- without a doubt. What's at issue here is averages and proportions.

Go to google and search "race" plus the aforementioned social ills like violent crime, high school dropout rate, test scores, automobile accidents, teen pregnancy...

There's a reason why white countries and states are more civilized and more successful.
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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 19:19:36

Besides cheap labor which benefits entrenched power at the expense of the middle class, if you want to know why the Feds are reluctant to rid us of Mexican immigration, consider this:

Top 3 Oil Importers

SAUDI ARABIA 1.5 million barrels per day
CANADA 1.4 million barrels per day
MEXICO 1.4 million barrels per day

I wonder if there is a hint of blackmail coming from Mexico?
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Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 19:21:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')y your logic, Ireland isn't your land either since you're probably not a direct descendant of the first humans to occupy Ireland.

Moreover, it's quite possible that this contintent was peopled by various routes and from different continents over the last 20,000 years


Yes. That is true. 100%. That's not what I was referring to and you know it. That's one of those fatuous arguments people use to defend the actions of their ancestors in taking the land of indiginous peoples. It's not right, it's not smart and it's not something to be proud of. Perhaps there's just too great a chasm in the opinions of the "conqueror" and the "conquered". I live in a country that was only "liberated" within the last 100 years, so yeah, it's a sore point for me when people say that it's ok to take someone else's land by force, because it was "fairly won" in battle. It wasn't fairly won. Europeans had guns, natives did not : there was no contest. If winning fairly had been on the agenda they'd all have fought with their fists and nothing else. Either way, arriving on the shores of distant inhabited lands and taking over is wrong... simply wrong. How could it ever be right?

Either way, this isn't about natives anymore, as you have pointed out, even though earlier in this thread that was an issue that was addressed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I never claimed that white people are perfect, moron. There are stupid, violent, trashy white people- without a doubt. What's at issue here is averages and proportions.

Go to google and search "race" plus the aforementioned social ills like violent crime, high school dropout rate, test scores, automobile accidents, teen pregnancy...


Nice touch on the "moron". It was unnecessary and lends no integrity to your post.

Why do you need to put "race" in your google search. By your own admission, there are stupid people in white "civilisation". What difference does race make when talking about stupidity and irresponsibility? You're either stupid or you're not, race is irrelevant. I know full well the mess some minority groups make, we have a problem with it over here. They seem worse than your immigrants, who at least are willing to work for a living.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here's a reason why white countries and states are more civilized and more successful.


What do you mean by "civilised" and "more successful"? It wouldn't have anything to do cheap oil from the very clearly non-white/non-western/less-"civilised"/less-"successful" arabs, would it?
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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 20:17:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'T')hat's one of those fatuous arguments people use to defend the actions of their ancestors in taking the land of indiginous peoples. It's not right, it's not smart and it's not something to be proud of.


When did I state that the conquering of North American Indians and taking their land was morally upright, or that I was proud of it? I merely commented that after we took it, we made it something powerful and successful, for better or worse.

The fact is, this is our land now. We built this country -and like you said- it's not right to invade someone else's country and lay claim to it, which is why I'm justified in opposing illegal immigration.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps there's just too great a chasm in the opinions of the "conqueror" and the "conquered". I live in a country that was only "liberated" within the last 100 years, so yeah, it's a sore point for me when people say that it's ok to take someone else's land by force, because it was "fairly won" in battle. It wasn't fairly won. Europeans had guns, natives did not : there was no contest. If winning fairly had been on the agenda they'd all have fought with their fists and nothing else.


Fighting isn't about being fair. "Fighting fair" by some childish definition doesn't guarantee the victor will have the moral high ground. So if the whites would've defeated the Indians with their fists, then would this rightfully be our land by your silly notion of justice?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ice touch on the "moron". It was unnecessary and lends no integrity to your post.


Just calling it like I see it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy do you need to put "race" in your google search. By your own admission, there are stupid people in white "civilisation". What difference does race make when talking about stupidity and irresponsibility? You're either stupid or you're not, race is irrelevant.


You being a female and all, I didn't expect you to comprehend what I meant when I said "averages and proportions." Have you ever heard of statisitics, you know, that math thing?

Case in point: So you're walking alone down the middle of a lit street at 2AM, and a car is coming. You have to move to one of the poorly lit sidewalks on either side of the street to get out of the way. One side of the street is the black neighborhood, where statistics show that no matter you're race, you're 10 times more likely to get raped, stabbed, shot, mugged, or beat down. The other side of the street is equally low income, but only Chinese live there. Statistics show that while rapes, muggings, and murders do happen on the Chinese block, they're much more infrequent. Which side would you choose?

In that realistic little microcosm, I just illustrated that race matters.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know full well the mess some minority groups make, we have a problem with it over here. They seem worse than your immigrants, who at least are willing to work for a living.

Too bad you're neither intelligent nor courageous enough to oppose it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat do you mean by "civilised" and "more successful"?

I mean it just like it sounds. What DON'T I mean by civilized and successful? Africa, Latin America, Middle East, parts of Asia.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t wouldn't have anything to do cheap oil from the very clearly non-white/non-western/less-"civilised"/less-"successful" arabs, would it?

Certainly not during the first half of our rise to power. But it has everything to do with relatively high average white intelligence. It also has a lot to do with our own natural resources, which we shamefully plundered.
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Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 20:38:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust calling it like I see it.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou being a female and all, I didn't expect you to comprehend what I meant when I said "averages and proportions." Have you ever heard of statisitics, you know, that math thing?



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo bad you're not intelligent or courageous enough to oppose it.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat DON'T I mean by civilized and successful? Africa, Latin America, Middle East, parts of Asia.



Ok. You resort to petty insults, sexist and racist remarks, you call me a moron, unintelligent, a coward. How very "civilised" of you. Arguments like this are pointless. You know nothing about me, and yet you make assumptions like that... as soon as you start with the personal attacks, your argument is worthless.
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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 20:51:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'O')k. You resort to petty insults, sexist and racist remarks, you call me a moron, unintelligent, a coward. How very "civilised" of you. Arguments like this are pointless. You know nothing about me, and yet you make assumptions like that...


I wasn't resorting to petty insults, as if I had no argument. I made my case somewhat succintly, with fact and reason, and only added the insults to make myself feel better about the idiocy you have displayed.

I'm not racist. I'm just not living under the unfounded delusion of absolute racial equality. I have no problem with intelligent and civilized people of any race; but some races have more of those desirables per capita than others.

Sexist? Well women have proven themselves to be, on the average, less capable of understanding math and related concepts.

I guess nature is racist and sexist.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a')s soon as you start with the personal attacks, your argument is worthless.


That's an illogical statement. It's quite possible I'm absolutely right, despite my attacking your courage and intelligence.
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Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 21:32:41

If your argument is so airtight, then the personal insults were unnecessary. So you either made them because you lost your temper or because you're just that rude. How could they possibly make you feel better about my "idiocy"? You need to insult other people if you feel they are inferior in order to make you feel better? There's nothing intelligent or courageous about that. With all that American success and civilisation, one would think you could afford some manners.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')exist? Well women have proven themselves to be, on the average, less capable of understanding math and related concepts.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have no problem with intelligent and civilized people of any race; but some races have more of those desirables per capita than others.


Please provide links to reliable data that can show women are less capable than men at maths (environmental factors excluded), and that some races are naturally more intelligent/civilised than others (environmental factors excluded). Or are these assumptions based on stereotype and personal experience?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's an illogical statement. It's quite possible I'm absolutely right, despite my attacking your courage and intelligence.


It's quite possible you're wrong. Insulting the intelligence and courage of another person despite having no facts about said person makes your argument worthless. You are making assumptions that you can't back up.
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Unread postby Phil » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 22:31:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')lease provide links to reliable data that can show women are less capable than men at maths (environmental factors excluded), and that some races are naturally more intelligent/civilised than others (environmental factors excluded). Or are these assumptions based on stereotype and personal experience?


If you were even competent to speak on this subject, you would know that each of those assertions are virtually established fact among serious scientists who study intelligence. I shouldn't have to educate you during an argument that you clearly have no business being in.

Race, Intelligence, and the Brain: The Errors and Omissions of the Revised Edition of S. J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1996)

The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability

Mainstream Science on Intelligence

Race, Socioeconomic Variables, and Intelligence: A Review and Extension of The Bell Curve

Smart Fraction Theory: IQ and the Wealth of Nations

Smart Fraction Theory II: Why Asians Lag

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's quite possible you're wrong. Insulting the intelligence and courage of another person despite having no facts about said person makes your argument worthless. You are making assumptions that you can't back up.


I don't have to know much about you to say what I said. Your opinions speak for themselves.

I'll provide links showing a gender gap in mathematical ability later.
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Unread postby dark-suzie » Sat 16 Apr 2005, 23:33:52

Image

ocatillo wells?
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Unread postby Ebyss » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 00:00:45

Wow. Ok. This is the last time I'm going to post in this topic, basically because I'm about to go to bed, and I'm not interested in debating with someone who cannot help but insult people who disagree (mistakenly or not) with what he says.

Your links, while very interesting, are all based on IQ, a notoriously biased way of assessing intercultural differences in "intelligence". I asked for any tests which exclude environmental factors. IQ tests can NEVER exclude environmental factors (and this is the only way to truly find an inherited/genetic link --- eliminate environment as a possible explanation for the results). IQ tests are considered to be capable of predicting academic "intelligence", and are context dependent (in a social/cultural sense). There are ethnic differences even when IQ tests are "translated" to suit the culture.. sometimes in favour of other races (Chan & Lynn, 1989).. they found that the mean IQ of Asians, whether in North America or Asia, tended to be around 5 points higher than the mean score of Caucasians. Low test scores in can stem from a host of environmental problems (poverty, poor schooling, poor home life), and thus do not reflect a true genetic result. Changes in environment can massively improve IQ scores : African American children adopted into middle-upper class European American families have been shown to have their IQ scores raised by at least 10 points.

When I said "show me some studies" I asked for those that could show a true genetic correlation between race and intelligence, one that could not be explained away by possible environmental influences. No such study exists. It's impossible to separate the two... which was what I was trying to get at.

The fallibility of IQ tests is taught in Psych 101. It's one of the first things you learn about. Yes, they have relevance, but in limited settings. They are most appropriate for Western Academia, and even then they have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Psychologists themselves admit that they have no idea how much intelligence depends on genetics and how much is down to environment. Twin studies have shown that IQ does appear to be inherited, but when twins are separated, environment can help/hinder the development of intelligence.

Ok. It's 5am. I have to go to bed.
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Unread postby Phil » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 00:31:52

You obviously didn't read or understand the material in those links.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 00:47:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', ' ')Well if humans are gonna trash anything, a desert is the best place to do it.


Hmm...reminds me of something I wrote once:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n today's world, an unprotected wilderness is doomed. Edward Abbey once wrote of Canyonlands National Park: "...The least inhabited, least inhibited, least improved, least civilized...most grim bleak barren desolate and savage quarter of the state of Utah—the best by far." Like Abbey, I, too, love the desert. The desert visitor tends not to revere the desert as he would the green pine forest. Thus, as a result of unintentional bias, the more fragile desert plays second fiddle. If you can't handle the hard facts of solitude, searing heat, and scarce water; you are not likely to smell the flowers.


The desert needs more protection than the pine forest. You might not like the desert and find it not worthy of anything--a wasteland. But nature cares not about what you think. San Diego County is the the most diverse county in the entire US. 1600 angiosperms (flowering plants) of that 1600, over half are found in the desert. In other words, much of the biodiversity that gives this planet its stability is often in the areas no one finds of value.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Unread postby Phil » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 02:09:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')he desert needs more protection than the pine forest. You might not like the desert and find it not worthy of anything--a wasteland. But nature cares not about what you think. San Diego County is the the most diverse county in the entire US. 1600 angiosperms (flowering plants) of that 1600, over half are found in the desert. In other words, much of the biodiversity that gives this planet its stability is often in the areas no one finds of value.


I agree that deserts are very fragile ecosystems which sometimes sponsor a surprising array of biodiversity. I agree that local biodiversity is important to the survival of a local ecosystem. However, I don't think that planetary ecological balance hinges on the biodiversity found in specific patches of desert.

While a patch of desert could potentially have more species of organisms than an equal-sized patch of forest, the forest will certainly have many more organisms in total. For this reason, I feel less bad about humans "trashing" a desert than a forest or prairie. Though I understand that the risk to biodiversity caused by human activity might be greater in the desert, where organisms of any particular species could be less numerous and more fragile than in a forest.

Your main point seems to be that deserts need some protection, and I agree.
Last edited by Phil on Sun 17 Apr 2005, 02:36:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 02:33:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phil', '
')Most of these people who are invading us from Latin America are not descendants of any North American tribes who were eliminated upon our arrival.

True. People who are eliminated don't leave many descendants.
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Unread postby Phil » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 02:45:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')rue. People who are eliminated don't leave many descendants.


This has happened throughout human history, on every inhabited continent.
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Unread postby seldom_seen » Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:28:37

Regardless of how you feel about the constant influx of illegal aliens (of many different ethnic backgrounds, coming from the north & south borders). There is no doubt they will add an additional level of f**kedness in the clusterf**ck that is peak oil.

Currently, most people are well fed (many quite obese actually). The SUV has a full tank of gas. The giant supermarkets are stocked to the brim with food. Most people don't have to worry about an illegal taking their job...and heck you can get a great deal on a painter, landscaper or a laborer! Who doesn't like saving money? Why worry about illegal aliens? We're all immigrants right?

heh.

just wait...
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