[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ar is the most likely, possibly the only morally acceptable form of death control. Starting one by enacting this kind of agenda would be somewhat less than intelligent.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ar is the most likely, possibly the only morally acceptable form of death control. Starting one by enacting this kind of agenda would be somewhat less than intelligent.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he way I read it you are playing masquerades, that's why I started the other thread on the key issue Euthanasia versus Eugenics.

What you are trying to do here is blur the line; but it's not your line to blur. Euthanasia has a huge strong and growing worldwide movement, for sound moral reasons. Eugenics has been condemned by history as always manifestly unfair, because there can be no fair impartial arbiter.

Although I am new on this site I have been reading a bit and I am aware of the moral argument for death controls, outside the euthanasia debate.

Fact is that whoever institutes such controls will be seen as the new Hitler or Stalin or some such. The nation who does this renders itself worthy of hate.

Hate starts wars Mr TWilliam.

War is the most likely, possibly the only morally acceptable form of death control. Starting one by enacting this kind of agenda would be somewhat less than intelligent.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'I')t is precisely the 'wrong' people who die in war. Namely the young and able-bodied. Which makes it in fact the least moral option with regard to population reduction.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'S')urely there'd be less fornicating though? That's got to be good for population reduction.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ar is a contrivance of lecherous, greedy old men, intended to remove competition.

[SeaGypsy]

I am not 'playing' anything SeaGypsy. I asked you what would happen if the family you described had lived amongst the Aborigines. What would happen if they were members of a purely natural human society? One that has existed on this planet virtually intact and unchanged since before 'white men' even existed[/i]? What [i]would happen?

]


Aboriginal culture has been devastated by white culture. There are people who still live traditionally. Maybe a few hundred in the entirety of Australia. The languages in Central& far northern Australia are alive& well. But the 'mainstream aboriginal culture' is a modern invention.

Australia was made up of over 500 Nations; each with it's own language, less than 100 of these are in daily use today.
As well as different languages they had different ways to deal with the difficulties of life.

Seriously disabled babies would generally be allowed to die.

Children showing signs of mental problems, or chronic illness, would not be allowed to breed. They would be married to an elderly infertile person to act as a carer. (The uninitiated are still not allowed to marry).

The culture in most parts did have a deep acceptance of death, as long as it was honorable within the system. The expression 'Time has come' is used as a signal for the family to say goodbye. The most honorable life ends in death in battle or by 'Sitting Down to Die'.
This is a self decided, self inflicted euthanasia. They walk off to a place they decided to leave their body, years before. The family will go looking for them after a few days or a week. If a truly honorable death, the elder will be found sitting upright or laid out flat on his/her back. This is their final dignity.

The only time 'death controls' or execution would be used is in time of absolute desperation, always during forced migration. Even then it would usually be done by leaving the person under a tree& white lying to them.

The aboriginals of Australia feared & loathed the headhunter Melanesian to their north& there is still a strong hangover of fear from the days when marauding cannibals would raid villages in what became north Queensland.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ar is a contrivance of lecherous, greedy old men, intended to remove competition.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') believe a lot of things most people find distasteful.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') believe a lot of things most people find distasteful.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')William, back a few pages in this thread you used the term "genetic defectives" and I suspect around that time is when the eugenics idea came to people's minds. If you don't believe in eugenics then it should be fairly simple to clear it up by saying so. It seems to me your primary focus has been on voluntary euthanasia, and perhaps on allowing parents to decide not to resort to technology to sustain the life of a child who would otherwise die. Are you in favor of giving the power of deciding who to euthanize to the state, or leaving it in the hands of families? I personally do not believe the state should mandate people's euthanasia. I also believe the state should also not interfere if a person chooses to die, and family should have more say in these matters. It's not the state's business, it's family business.

[SeaGypsy]

Eugenics
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"Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution": Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting it as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.[1]Eugenics is a scientific field involving the controlled breeding of humans in order to achieve desirable traits in future generations.[2] Eugenics was at its height in first half of the 20th century and was largely abandoned with the end of World War II.[3] At its zenith, the movement often pursued pseudoscientific notions of racial supremacy and purity.[4]

Eugenic was not confined to any one country or culture, but was practised around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Its advocates regarded it as a social philosophy for the improvement of human hereditary traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of certain people and traits, and the reduction of reproduction of certain people and traits.[5] Today it is widely regarded as a brutal movement which inflicted massive human rights violations on millions of people.[6] The "interventions" advocated and practised by eugenicists involved prominently the identification and classification of individuals and their families, including the poor, mentally ill, blind, 'promiscuous women', homosexuals and entire "racial" groups——such as the Roma and Jews——as "degenerate" or "unfit"; the segregation or institutionalisation of such individuals and groups, their sterilization, their "euthanasia", and in the worst case of Nazi Germany, their mass extermination.[7] The practices engaged in by eugenicists involving violations of privacy, attacks on reputation, violations of the right to life, to found a family, to discrimination are all today classified as [[b]/b]violations of human rights. The practice of negative racial aspects of eugenics, after World War II, fell within the definition of the new international crime of genocide, set out in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[8]

The definition of 'Who gets killed' is an arbitrary decision made by a non independent arbiter. (See split thread, Eugenics/ Euthanasia)

[Ludi]

I'm sticking with the assumption the "genetically defective" who get killed are not part of the gene pool anyway. If they were, they would be active and relatively healthy people who can probably care for themselves to some extent. So this discussion is not really about eugenics at all, but about deciding who gets killed and why. The terminally ill are not part of the gene pool either.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') believe a lot of things most people find distasteful.

[Ludi]

These conversations are very difficult and lead to a lot of misunderstandings. It would be helpful if people would write more plainly. Phrases like "cutting the rope" and "culling parasites" are easily misconstrued. If you mean "killing people" say "killing people." If you mean "letting people die" say "letting people die." If you mean "killing terminally ill people by humane means with the aid of a physician" say "killing terminally ill people by humane means with the aid of a physician."

Please let's avoid vague language and saying things like "I can't tell you what I really mean because it would violate the COC." Just come out and say it, risk violating the COC. Or just don't say anything at all about it, because if you get all vague people are going to say you are advocating things like killing people illegally ("murder").

Stop tap dancing and come right out and say what you mean.


Thanks.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')lease let's avoid vague language and saying things like "I can't tell you what I really mean because it would violate the COC." Just come out and say it, risk violating the COC. Or just don't say anything at all about it, because if you get all vague people are going to say you are advocating things like killing people illegally ("murder"). Stop tap dancing and come right out and say what you mean.Thanks.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', '
')I would be more than happy to discuss this subject with you by PM, Ludi; however, as one of those charged with enforcing the COC, I cannot intentionally violate it just to prove a point.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I applaud your efforts to bring clarity to the issue, Ludi. Code phrases are not good for discourse. Metaphors can get murky and people wind up talking past each other.

[Ludi]

Thank you, PMS.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')top tap dancing and come right out and say what you mean.