[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he quote was more of a hyperbole to demonstrate the prevasive nature of technology and it's impact on our environment, not a point for debate.

[Leanan]

I'm looking at it from an anthropology point of view. Agriculture is by definition intensive and produces surpluses. Otherwise, it's called something else. Horticulture. Pastoralism. Not agriculture.

FWIW, agriculture is considered to have begun in the Neolithic, so it is indeed a Stone Age technology.

And I do think this is part of the big picture. It's harder work to farm than to forage, but our ancestors couldn't go back. Not only were their numbers too high, but if they did, the neighboring farmers would conquer them. They couldn't "powerdown" even if they wanted to. That is very much the situation we are in today.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he quote was more of a hyperbole to demonstrate the prevasive nature of technology and it's impact on our environment, not a point for debate.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'F')WIW, agriculture is considered to have begun in the Neolithic, so it is indeed a Stone Age technology.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', ' ') Entropy, the second law of thermodynamics is the supreme law of the universe. All energy moves from an ordered to a disordered state ... the only thing that we have some limited control over is the RATE at which entropy occurs.

The ideal is to design a society which gives you the most bang for the buck, i.e. the greatest amount of human comfort (for lack of a better word) with the slowest rate of entropy increase.

[linlithgowoil]

in the end, though, nothing is sustainable. earth will one day be uninhabitable. the universe will one day end.

if only the earth was 100 times bigger, we'd not be all that bad off at this point....

[basketballjones]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'F')WIW, agriculture is considered to have begun in the Neolithic, so it is indeed a Stone Age technology.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basketballjones', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'F')WIW, agriculture is considered to have begun in the Neolithic, so it is indeed a Stone Age technology.

[Doly]

Monte, it is well known that even primitive peoples have managed to destroy their own environment (the Easter island example is a favourite in here). I don't think that any particular level of technology is unsustainable. Making excessive use of resources, whether with high or low tech, is what is unsustainable.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'M')onte, it is well known that even primitive peoples have managed to destroy their own environment (the Easter island example is a favourite in here). I don't think that any particular level of technology is unsustainable. Making excessive use of resources, whether with high or low tech, is what is unsustainable.

[gg3]

The only sustainable level of technology is one that includes birth control methods that produce a steady-state population that can survive on its energy income rather than by burning its energy capital.

So no, your stone-agers fare no better in the long run; like anyone else, they multiply like little mice until they over-run their food supply, and then they all go curl up and die of hunger.

Malthus bats last, regardless of who the visiting team is.

[Doly]

I agree wholeheartedly. We need birth control for a sustainable future. That implies fairly high tech.

Also, if we are to deal with the CO2 problem, we won't get rid of it using the old stone age method of burning wood.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e need birth control for a sustainable future. That implies fairly high tech.

[gnm]

Ask the gates foundation about birth control - they distributed the vaccine (against polio I think?) in Africa which sterilized huge numbers of women... Made the women have an immune reaction to thier ovaries... Now how did that get in there?....

-G

[zed]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
Not for the majority of cultures.

Can you name some unsustainable stone age technologies?

[Soo]

Here's another doubter of the Peak Oil theory. Ownen McShane gives at least 20 reasons why Peak Oil is nonsense. Here's a link to the article in the New Zeland Herald

He runs through the typical reasoning:

a) We really haven't looked hard enough for oil yet because "it has not been worth looking for more of it". Well I guess billions of dollars in profits hasn't been inticing enough for companies to look under every rock.

b) High prices will encourage exploration for oil in harder to reach places. Definitely true, but we know where most of the oil is already...in Saudi Arabia.

c) Technology will save the day. We will liquify coal, put windmills on our roofs to store hydrogen and all buy hybrid cars. My personal favorite is that he believes genetic enginners will modify trees and plants to produce oil directly from their roots. Well slap a garden on my roof-rack and sign me up!

d) Vodo economics. He states that at continued growth of 3% per year in 100 years we mean we are all rich, so don't worry about those $30 fill-up's.

[Soo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')orld population collapse is just around the corner - let’s say 2050. This coupling of population decline with increased efficiency will compensate for increases in energy use.

[UIUCstudent01]

About the population collapse part.. I think the U.N. or someone has a report out that says that the population will level off by 2050 (not because of oil or anything) because places like china, india won't be able to hold anymore and in the developed countries such as the United States local population has leveled because of economics (People in poorer countries get kids because they are potential farm hands and pay for themselves, whilst in rich countries they have an opportunity cost, thus a price).

Yeah, I think it's totally bogus. That guy makes some great claims - Journalist (some have been paid by industry and government to take a side favorable to them) verse 'greens' who happen to have current events and institutions going for them! Yay!

[RonMN]

>What happens, for example, when petrol hits, say, $5 a litre at the pump? At that point it is worth converting coal into fuel oil using present technologies

WHAAA???

at $5 a litre our economy will have long collapsed! No more stock market, no more money in my 401K plan...apples will be $5 a piece. actually the dollar would have lost it's value so it'd be more like "hey buddy, i'll trade ya a chicken for two dozen apples"

[Soo]

Not surprisingly he also thinks Global Warming isn't an issue either

Article

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"...future generations will be much wealthier than those of today, and their extra wealth means that they will be able to deal with the comparatively minor impacts of any likely changes. Humans are adaptable creatures and our adaptability is proportional to our wealth. Hence we should do nothing that destroys our ability to generate wealth now and in the future."