[bart]

The distinction between Left and Right is difficult to figure out when one is in the midst of modern American culture. It's easier if you look at earlier periods of history or in other countries.

Basically, the Right is the party of the economic elites, whether they are the corporate elite or a land-owning elite. Because elites are by definition a minority, they traditionally ally themselves with religious conservatives and nationalists.

The Left traditionally is the party of the non-elite -- working people and small farmers -- groups that historically and in most of the world are a majority.

The middle classes are divided in their allegiances, shifting back and forth.

The story gets more complicated in the US and other industrialized countries, where working people and the middle classes were able to acquire more political and economic power than they had ever had before. I think there were three main factors behind their success:

1) Fossil fuels put vast amounts of energy at the disposal of society. As Heinberg and others point out, through fossil fuels we have the equivalent of several hundred "energy slaves" working for each of us.

2) The countries that were first to industrialize augmented their wealth through colonies and imperialism.

3) Economic benefits came as a result of political struggles by the Left (think unions and the New Deal). After World War II, the elites made many concessions to working people, in large part to keep them from turning to Communism.

The relationship between Left/Right and personal liberties is a complicated one. When the Right speaks about their belief in personal liberties, it usually translates into protection of property rights, specifically the property rights of the elite. The Right has historically been averse to democracy (e.g., the idea that working people should have the vote). The Left has been averse to concentrations of wealth and power. Either party becomes less enthusiastic about freedom of speech when it is in power.

What distorts most discussion about the Left is the idea that the Left is the same as Marxist-Leninism ("Communism"), as exemplified by the USSR. In fact, the Left is a diverse and contentious spectrum of parties, ideas and tendencies, ranging from free-spritied anarchists, to libertarian socialists, to hardcore Leninists, to conservative social-democrats.

Even though the Left is disorganized and beaten down in the US and other industrialized countries, I wouldn't count it out. Consider:

* After Peak Oil, the material standard of living will drop, causing popular discontent.

* After PO, it will be more expensive to transport goods and employ labor-saving machinery; manufacturers will be more dependent on labor.

* It is more difficult to gain wealth as an imperialist power. US military might is expensive to maintain, and depends on loans from Japan, China, etc..

* The lead in technology enjoyed by the US and Europe has shrunk.

* Bush and the neo-cons have made the US very unpopular in the rest of the world. They have discredited capitalism to an extent undreamed of by the Left.

* As memories of Marxist-Leninism begin to fade, other more viable forms of Leftism will have a chance to emerge.

[julianj]

Bart, a very good concise summary.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Yes, I like the clarity. Perhaps politics will actually become more clearly demarcated as the oil crisis unfolds.

[Rickenbacker]

I doubt it. The variety of idealogies people hold for me represents the true variety of the people. The lack of variety in viable polical parties reflects a power system which prevents the poor man from taking part. As with most of history, if TSHTF then there will just be those with priveledge and those without.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rickenbacker', ' ')if TSHTF then there will just be those with priveledge and those without.

[Rickenbacker]

I'll let you past my razor wire if you bring some coal for the fire. We'll run out of marshmallows damn quick though. Shame cars aren't made out of something better for fuel, guess we'll just pile em up for makeshift walls.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Folks can just make forays out into the abandoned 'burbs with axes to fell the old McMansions.

[erl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's not left or right, it's top against bottom, in a reinvigonration of class war, emanating from the top.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I think what threadbear is referring to is the old left. But the new left, erl is as you say and leaves you scratching your head. The new right isn't very clear either. In fact, I think that politically speaking there isn't any meaning at all in the terms left and right anymore. Plenty of big corporate interests give a lot of money to left wing causes (or left wing groups anyway). Reminds me of how the counterculture of the 60's: tune in, turn on, drop out got hijacked by the advertising world and made to serve the consumerist agenda. Politics has become a choice between Pepsi or Coke.

[Tyler_JC]

To give another analysis of the whole thing...

There are only two political ideologies. That’s right, only two. In the end it comes down to your answer to this question. This question decides which camp you are in. Here it is, “The King comes to you asks you to do something you are opposed to, do you have the right to disagree?”

Life exists on a force continuum. The King (or whatever leader) will push people until they push back. Government can either take away your right to do X or not take away your right to do X. The two sides are the Anarcho-Capitalists and the Totalitarians. The issues are diverse but if you break them down, it becomes a simple of choice of freedom versus tyranny. Even in an environmentally friendly hippie commune, they have this choice. Can I pollute my own environment by burning this black stuff? (The King says no) I can’t? Ok, you have just taken away my right to burn that black stuff.

Some kinds of tyranny are ok. I’m fine with having a military to defend me from the barbarians tribes. I’m fine with having a police force to protect my rights from those who would take those rights from me. I’m ok with paying a small portion of my income to these people in order to maintain peace. It’s great to have environmental protections to keep me from dieing from mercury poisoning. But my right not to have mercury in my air conflicts with your right to put mercury in the air. A good king will make the right choice and keep mercury out of the air.

It’s called the Social Contract. We the people agree to give up a few rights so that the government can protect us from things we can’t protect ourselves from (like Bob the Industrialist dumping mercury in “my” air).

I probably could have made that make sense, but I’m too lazy. If you have any questions, please ask.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A') fascinating thread in Geopolitics started by a self-proclaimed Neo-Con raises some interesting questions. The presence of this neocon abelardlindsay seemed to provoke an immune response as though he were an antigen - the leukocytes and antibodies were all over him. Some British poster thought he must be descended from criminal deportees from the old Empire days. Others compared him to Hitler. But what was he saying? I think it boils down to this: the world is a dangerous, wicked place and pragmatic policy would suggest that America needs to stay powerful and be number one in global affairs. If we don't, somebody else will. I refer you to the thread if you haven't already read it. Another interesting notion he put forth, which I agree with, is that if the Left takes control after TSHTF then your efforts to prepare small sustainable communities will be collectivised. Finally, what are 'the left' and 'the right'? Most of what AL was saying wasn't too inflamatory as far as I could see, but the reaction was furious and far out of proportion to the content. What gives?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'T')o give another analysis of the whole thing...

There are only two political ideologies. That’s right, only two. In the end it comes down to your answer to this question. This question decides which camp you are in. Here it is, “The King comes to you asks you to do something you are opposed to, do you have the right to disagree?”

Life exists on a force continuum. The King (or whatever leader) will push people until they push back. Government can either take away your right to do X or not take away your right to do X. The two sides are the Anarcho-Capitalists and the Totalitarians.

[Tyler_JC]

Ah, here's the only point of contention that I was afraid someone would bring up.

What if I don't want to share? If I'm forced to share, you are trampling my freedom to do and act as I please. If I'm not forced to share, I'm free even though I might end up dying as I result of my selfishness.

"a non-hierarchical,non-captialist system" sounds great but it doesn't work in large numbers. You are always going to have jerks. You will always have people who mess up Utopia . That's why it's called Utopia (no land). So have fun in your hippie commune (that's what it is, after all) but watch out for the Totalitarians taking over your land or the Anarcho-Capitalists rebeling from your authority.

Most of the current political parties are from the same Totalitarian mindset. The degrees vary but overall the drumbeat is more government and more control. This unfortunately means (almost by definition) less freedom and less choice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
"Liberty is the soul's room to breathe. The state confines us, controls us, directs us. Each new law is a choice ripped from us. Every new bureaucrat a master over us and yet we instinctively assume it should solve all our problems in the name of freedom. More bureaucracy is not an option." (some website I can't remember the name of)

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
Most of what AL was saying wasn't too inflamatory as far as I could see, but the reaction was furious and far out of proportion to the content. What gives?

... yet we still have this strange political schism over something or other. What it is exactly I can't tell.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')What if I don't want to share? If I'm forced to share, you are trampling my freedom to do and act as I please. If I'm not forced to share, I'm free even though I might end up dying as I result of my selfishness.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'T')his is what i've noticed from the left (liberals) since clinton left office. They're ready to rev up a civil war by declairing every election they loose to be "stolen" or "corrupt". Standing up for the second amendment will provoke a fierce reaction and if you're pro-life you've just lost your first amendment rights as well.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat is "to be forced"? In a way, everybody is free. Nobody can move your muscles for you, what you decide to do is simply your decision. Of course, you can live in an environment where some people do their best to "help" you decide ("do this, or else..."), or one where, for most issues, people let you do what you like. But, as long as you have neighbours, there's going to be some amount of coercion going on. You can try to live in a society where coercion is minimal. But don't kid yourself, there's always going to be limits imposed to you by other people.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
"a non-hierarchical,non-captialist system" sounds great but it doesn't work in large numbers. You are always going to have jerks. You will always have people who mess up Utopia .

[k_semler]

Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing.
--Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

When one makes a Revolution, one cannot mark time; one must always go forward - or go back. He who now talks about the "freedom of the press" goes backward, and halts our headlong course towards Socialism.
--Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.
--Joseph Stalin

In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than advance.
Joseph Stalin

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
Joseph Stalin

There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland..
--Adolf Hitler

Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.
--Adolf Hitler

Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.
Adolf Hitler

When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."
Adolf Hitler