[RdSnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')Jefferson could just as easily have said, “…all white men are created equal.” That would have closed the book on it. Do you think he wasn’t smart enough to know that history would not look on him as a hypocrite? Do you think he didn’t know that history would record that he systematically raped a slave girl for years? Of course he knew this. The great thing about Jefferson is that he wrote about what we ought to be not what we were. He inspired us to aspire for greatness. That aspiration freed the slaves and ended segregation.

[Cloud9]

I am looking at it from the perspective of the time. Jefferson was a Francophile. He was the American Ambassador to France. The French intellectuals at the time were bitten with the concept of the noble savage. They were not big on slavery. Man as it was used in the 18th century referred to the species. As I recall Jefferson cut a deal with Sally to get her to return to America with him. The deal was that he would manumit their children.

I think Jefferson could just as easily have substituted white men or citizens rather than use the phrase all men. I think you sell him short.

[Heineken]

Every dog has its day. Or its millennium.

The Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans . . . even the Nazis.

Every single civilization or empire had a rise, a peak, and a decline.

Ours had a brilliant start and an admirable center but now shows all the signs of being in decline. For obvious reasons, patriotic jingoism is always at its most strident in the midst of a faltering reality.

Also, I agree strongly with what Leanan said about resources. Natural systems and our interaction with them are what really matter, not these arbitrary borders we superimpose over them.

After all the wars and waste and damage, is nationalism really something to celebrate? Think about it. Get outside the mental model that imprisons you.

[Byron100]

Will do my best to share how I feel about this sort of thing...

Just a couple weeks ago, when I was feeling particularly fatalistic about the world, I took a trip to the local Atlanta History Museum "just for something to do". Although I didn't much want to at first, I toured the Civil War exhibit, which is really one of the best in the entire country. Highly recommended if you have any sort of interest in American history.

Anyhow, I toured that thing with a mixture of fascination and horror, how the cultural differences between the South and the North became too great to bear (it wasn't just about slavery, of course). And for four long, terrible years, this nation fought a war that eventually cost 670,000 American lives and left the southern states in a state of utter destitution and poverty. Atlanta, of course, was burned to the ground, as well as a swath of land 60 miles wide and 250 miles long, a scene of destruction that has no compare in these modern times.

And I kept asking myself, why? Why did we engage in this mindless, terrible war? Was national unity more important than the lives of 670,000 people and a scene of destruction that took decades to recover from? And when the war was finally won, did the blacks get the freedom they so deserved? Of course not. That was something that had to be resolved in another century.

So I left that place, feeling more ashamed of this country than ever, fighting back tears. And then as was driving home, I happened to look up at the mighty blue glass towers clawing towards the sky, and I thought for a minute, hey, this is the city was was burned down to the ground by cruel-minded oppressors, and basically left to rot afterwards. But look at this place now - a vibrant metropolis of over 5 million people, marked by a dramatic skyline and rolling, forested hills filled with wonderful homes such as the one I live in, people like me living lives of what would have been considered almost unimaginable luxury compared to how it was back in 1865. How far we have come in 144 years!

Now, that's something I can be proud of - to go from the crushing defeat of the C.S.A., a short-lived nation that never knew peace, to becoming a vibrant part of a vast nation that spans a continent, ocean to ocean. And while there are so many things that make me hang my head in shame about this nation - the tragedy of George W. Bush, the overreaching, oppressive Federal Government that's taking the Constitution apart piece by piece, the overwhelming culture of mindless consumerism, the pervasive apathy and ennui that have infected so many of us, rich and poor, young and old, there is so much to be proud of as well.

Think of all the people that have played a role in what this nation is today: The teachers which work endless hours amid demoralizing frustration in order to educate our children. The people that slave away at exhausting, soul-sapping jobs, just so we can have a hot meal for a few dollars, and for office workers to have freshly-pressed pants and shirts for work. Think of the folks that fix our cars and drive the Big Rigs to and from every corner of the 50 states, just so we can have food when we want, as well as all the other things that provide us with the comforts of modern living. I am filled with nothing but pride for those that dedicate their lives to serve the poor and needy, and folks that spend their time as political activists, so that the rest of us may live better lives. I am SO PROUD of all those who have laid down their lives, willingly, so that that future generations would at least have a chance to live in peace. The union workers who refused to back down in the face of thuggish violence, so that we would have evenings and weekends to enjoy for ourselves, and to be able to earn enough wages to have lives of comfort and security. And on and on it goes, for we're a nation of people just like us, our brothers and sisters, and our friends and co-workers. If I can be proud of them, does that mean I'm proud of America too? You tell me.

And perhaps America is an experiment gone awry, just like so many nations that have come before us. Reflection of our flawed human condition and all of that. But if we really do make the "Big Change" so to speak, perhaps it will take place in the form of a new society arising from the ashes of the old - it could be here, it could be anywhere.

And yes, I can't help but feel *a little bit* of pride to recognize that a black person will be President tomorrow, 144 years after the end of the Civil War. To go from how we were back then to where we are now - it will never, ever cease to amaze me.

For a day at least, I'm going to allow myself the privilege of saying "America is the place to be."

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Is no one proud of America?

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Even Europeans can't take all the credit for inventing Western Civilization; that honor resides with the Ancient Greeks and Romans. That's where it all began.

[Schmuto]

Patriotism should not be confused with nationalism?

I suppose just like "partial birth abortion" and "dilation and extraction" should not be confused.

One is supposed to sound good.

Patriotism is nationalism. Patriotism is what fuels wars, xenophobia, and ignorance.

Patriotism is the reason that most Americans hate Iran but couldn't point to within 1,000 miles of it on an unmarked globe.

Patriotism is the reason that schools don't teach the real history of America.

I remember having a moment of clarity one day. I had read, with anger, several years before that Japan wasn't teaching their children about their abominable behavior in mainland Asia during WWII. A few years later I was thinking about my education and how most of the real American history was not discussed - ethnic cleansing of Indians, wars to steal land from Mexico, Rule by corporate elite and bankers, and, more recently, CIA murder of democratically elected officials, U.S. militarism, the support of the racist regime in Israel.


I thought, we're no different than Japan. They teach you we were heroes who stopped Nazism. That's all you need to know. Stop thinking there.

They present Little Big Horn as a "massacre." !!! Them nasty Injuns. Meanwhile, I had to find out on my own, after high school, what wounded knee was. Who Allende was. What the Bay of Pigs was. Our responsibility for giving racist lunatics in Israel the A-Bomb.

Patriotism, even without jingoism, is a control mechanism. Attempts to distinguish patriotism from nationalism fail, because you don't have to personally have "hatred" or "aggression" toward other nations/people to support and contribute to the hatred of other nations and people.

Think about it.

Why are we in Afghanistan?

We are there for oil and opium. Simple as that.

Why is it that 90% or more of Americans think we're there to capture a single guy? Or to prevent a bunch of guys with assault rifles from bringing down America?

Your answer is patriotism.

Patriotism is what allows such nonsense to exist.

It's the same Patriotism that allows Munqi to believe that finland (FINLAND!!!) is the greatest place on earth.

Why are Americans not screaming that we should pull out of Afghanistan now?

It's because Americans have been thoroughly taught that "we are the good guys. America is the home of the free and brave."

And the evidence is all there, is it not? We beat the Nazis. We beat the Kaiser before them. We beat the Japs, and lord knows they had it coming. And we took out that villain Hussein, more recently. Right? And we invented Rock and Roll. So, there's that.

So you want to know why we're in an endless war in Iraq, and a nothing war in Afghanistan, and most Americans go about their daily activity with no concern?

It's because of that non-nationalism patriotism that you see above this post. It's because you're born and raised to think that we are the good guys.

And it doesn't even occur to most people to question that. So they don't. And the reason they don't is because they're patriots, and they've been taught that questioning your country is unpatriotic.

And soon Bush the 3rd will lead us into war against Iran at the behest of the Zionists, and it really will be the end of everything normal.

And we'll all sit back and let it happen because the patriotism that makes everybody so proud will not allow the conception of the truth.

That we're not the good guys, and maybe, while we were a few times here and there, we never really were the good guys. We were the Empire makers, and we were happy to take out whatever was in the way, whether they were red n-ggers, black n-ggers, or sand n-ggers. We started with the reds because they were on our land, then we moved to the blacks because they wanted some of our land, and now we're moving on to the sand n-ggers because they're on our oil.

That we were never taught in school that our government was the one who interfered in Iran and had a popular leader removed from office in the 50s because we wanted the Shah who would be happy to allow foreign oil companies to control the oil.

Did anybody else learn that in the public schools? Seems pretty relevant now that we're on the verge of attacking them.

That Israel has an unmonitored nuclear arsenal based on technology they stole through spying on the U.S..

Maybe - just maybe - that feeling of pride that wells up in you when they play the national anthem and show a picture of a veteran with a blown off arm and images of Iwo Jima and Pat Tillman are flashed across the screen, oh yes, and let's not forget the Twin Towers! That was a good one - a "new Pearl Harbor" as Cheney put it before it happened - makes you feel proud to be an American!!! Go America!! U S A!! U S A!!!

maybe that feeling of pride is what suppresses the average American's ability to rationally consider the behavior of his or her government.

I've looked for a very long time now. I've considered it quite closely.

I can find no other reason why otherwise good and decent Americans permit their country to engage in such reckless and evil behavior. They're made ignorant by their patriotism, which is why people who are not ignorant about history tend not to be patriotic.

By the way, just so long as it's not inferred that I'm blaming one country in particular - - -

I think the Fins and the Canadians, and particularly the Canadians, are substantially more delusional about their countries than are Americans. The Canadians are almost universally happy to enjoy all the benefits of being a critical part of the Empire, and while most of them are very adept at pointing out the flaws in America, nary a person north of the border seems to understand the complete complicity of Canada in each and every American act - at any moment, Canada can choose to stop interacting economically with America - cut off some of the fuel to the war machine, as it were. It doesn't. It's like the thrift store that buys clothes it knows is stolen [think Marla Singer], and then, as the thief departs after depositing a new load and taking the pittance in return for his thievery, the thrift store owner shakes his head and opines, aloud, as he puts price tags on the clothes and adds them to the racks, "stealing is wrong and damnable."

[Pretorian]

This is not a copypaste I hope? Thats a great post Schmuto. I hope you won't be banned too soon for your anti-semitism.

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Even Europeans can't take all the credit for inventing Western Civilization; that honor resides with the Ancient Greeks and Romans. That's where it all began.

[bratticus]

How could anyone not be proud of a nation that can p0wn so effectively?

[flash width=425 height=344]http://www.youtube.com/v/5akpnIFK-RM[/flash]

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'I') see young people joining the military and all I can think is, "they going to die for a giant lie."

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')
Think about it.

Why are we in Afghanistan?

We are there for oil ...

[Nickel]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NoWorries', 'H')owever, I will grant that there are two valuable inheritances which make the West stand out for the better:


1) English common law system (which has given us the Rule of Law)

[RdSnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'I') see young people joining the military and all I can think is, "they going to die for a giant lie."

[Nickel]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'I') mean, the U.S. is 90% of Canada's trade

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')
Think about it.

Why are we in Afghanistan?

We are there for oil ...

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
Afghanistan doesn't have oil.

------sadly, Schmu, you are not alone in your mistaken beliefs. Many Americans are virtually scientifically illiterate and don't even know it. They can be duped by the silliest claims, as you were apparently duped by someone telling you Afghanistan has oil reserves.

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')
Think about it.

Why are we in Afghanistan?

We are there for oil ...

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'I') see young people joining the military and all I can think is, "they going to die for a giant lie."

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RdSnt', 'Y')ou are mistaken though, a military does not defend the peoples rights.