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What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Arsenal » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 18:23:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Actually not entirely... it is just that I'm not that far from the Atlantic and salt could be traded for... more locally than could pepper & cocoa which come from the tropics...

But you are right about salt being valuable... moreso if you are in the desert, but I'm in Maryland...


I hope you have a ton of time(evaporation) or wood/fuel (boiling) but it could be done well with a little planing. I would rather be tending a garden or hunting than making salt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')OST OF BOILING.--Ordinary sea-water contains about 2 1/2 per cent. of its weight of pure salt. Hence, it follows that 10,000 gallons contain a little more than 38 bushels of salt, of 56 pounds each. Assuming that 85 per cent. of this can be extracted by boiling, 10,000 gallons of sea-water will yield nearly 32 1/2 bushels of salt. To boil down this quantity of sea-water will require the combustion of 7 1/3 cords of wood; that is, not quite 4 1/2 bushels of salt to each cord of wood burnt. When the brine is weaker than ordinary sea-water, of course the yield will be proportionally smaller, and the operations more expensive. To obtain a good quality of salt, all the precautions in boiling indicated under the second method must be observed.



Sounds like a whole lot of work instead of buying a couple hundred pounds of it.

Salt from sea evaporation
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby vaseline2008 » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 18:46:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'W')hen it becomes apparent that it is about to hit the fan with peak oil economically, what should one do financially?

I am personally planning 2009 as a year when I stockpile ETFs in Oil, like ticker USO.

I figure when TSHTF I need to sell all ETFs and stocks take profits as get cash, but then I should use the cash to buy something tangible.

Should it be gold, silver, what?

Currently oil is set to the dollar. It's like the "oil standard". If and when the oil producing nations decide to no longer accept US Dollars for oil that's when things are going to be dicey. Funny, oil as a currency...
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Geodesic » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 18:50:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
') I know lots of well intentioned people that still refuse to use microwaves because the 'waves' are radioactive.


A lot of people won't use microwaves not because they're radioactive but because they change the molecular structure of food. http://www.mercola.com/article/microwave/hazards.htm
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby patience » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 20:28:07

Roman soldiers were once paid in salt. Salt is the root word from which we get "salary". "Not worth his salt", may also may have originated with the idea of salt as wages. In a severely powered-down world, salt could again become valuable enough to be used in trade. I have a couple hundred pounds for meat preservation, and will buy a lot more.

Copper, brass, and tin have been valuable enough in the past to be used for trade, also. Zinc and lead were used, but much less valuable, based on useage at the time.

My metal stockpiles are useful shapes and sizes of steel for general repair work, brass and bronze for bearing materials, copper electrical wire for general use, lead ingots, and babbit alloy (lead/tin/antimony) for cast bearings. Lead/tin solder, and brazing alloys are worth having, along with silver solder.

Fuels of all sorts will be actively traded. Firewood is NOW. Standing timber is a great resource, if you have the means to put it to use. A barrel of kerosene will store forever, and keep gaining in value. Kerosene lamps, wicks, and their glass chimneys will be in demand as electricity gets more iffy. How about a 5 gallon bucket full of cheap stainless steel forks/knives/spoons gotten at yard sales? Decent pocket knives-folders, not the wannabe Rambo stuff.

Prowl junkyards now, and collect steel hand tools--hoes, rakes, shovels, spades, and such, minus handles, and learn to make and replace the handles. They store compactly, cost about 10 cents/lb. now as scrap, and could be invaluable later. A barrel full of such refurbed tools, say 25 of them, would cost over $500 today, new. Probably will be a lot more later on.

If you just have money you want to preserve as buying power, US junk silver coins come to mind, as they are recognized widely and could be a reasonable "money" if the paper dollar goes poof.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby zoidberg » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 21:06:16

cigarettes will have value always
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Gorm » Tue 30 Dec 2008, 22:35:21

If money fails there will be new/other money. There is no option, what was the currency after Weimars hyperinflation? after argentinas collaps and so on? money, alwas money!
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 15:16:39

These microwave scare jobs are an example of squandered, misplaced concern.

There are so many legitimate things to fear.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 17:18:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sameu', 'w')hy is salt so important?
Ever see a deer or a cow at a salt lick? We need it to live.
+1

Humans and other animals need salt for normal metabolic function.
It's useful as an antiseptic and for food storage, but just for life in general
we need salt. I was talking to someone recently who has veganish tendencies
and was sure people don't need any salt in their diets. That person is wrong. :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]ECOLOGY

Natural salt licks have been available for as long as we know and have always provided a valuable source of minerals and trace elements to wildlife, especially herbivores. Since the majority of plants do not provide sufficient amounts of sodium and may lack adequate chloride, salt licks are a necessary part of most free-range herbivore diets. In addition to sodium and potassium salts, vital minerals such as calcium, phosphorus, copper, cobalt, zinc, iodine, iron, manganese and selenium are found in salt licks. In essence the salt lick is a big Flintstones vitamin spread out over the forest floor, and you know that you have to take your vitamins to grow up big and strong! Large numbers of fossils have been found at salt mine sites around the US, as these huge salt licks were a natural meeting place for herbivores and fertile hunting ground for carnivores.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=69851

The importance of salt licks and other sources of sodium in the ecology of the Ussuri moose
The distribution of local sources of sodium essentially determines the spatial and temporal structure of moose populations. Salt licks play an important role in the ecology of moose as a factor promoting their regular distribution under conditions of the mountain-taiga landscape and also affecting breeding activity; i.e., increasing the probability of encounters of mating partners.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... _n28974850

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MEDICINE

Human Hyponatremia

An elecrolyte disorder which occurs when the sodium level in the blood drops below 110mEq/L (Normal is 135-145mEq/L).
Causes

* Excessive water intake.
* Inadequate sodium intake.
* Loss of sodium rich body fluids.
* SIADH (Syndrome of Inappropriate Antidiuretic Hormone Secretion)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BIOLOGY AND NUTRITION

Sodium and CL intakes can very tremendously within human populations. The range of habitual daily intakes of salt compatible with a normal life span is from less then 2 g (Yanamamo Intians of the Amazon Basin) to 35 g (Northern Island of Japan)...

Under most circumstances, approximately 0.5 g of NaCl daily would represent an adequate intake. However, the peoples of most world regions consume 10-35 times this amount...

(Dietary deficiency is uncommon)

However, infants fed formulations with low NACL developed severe metabolic alkalosis because of CL deficiency. Sodium deficiency would only rarely be expected and only in populations that consume no salt and rely entirely on plant food grown in inland areas low in soil NA. Early signs and symptoms of a Na deficiency would be a progressive fall in urinary NA, and a dramatic reduction in work capacity and psychologic function...

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=_VLrnbBTqSUC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=salt+deficiency+nutrition&source=bl&ots=5rQFjgOFPj&sig=BOoWREcy7mt-6awLiIYm7NJEaOY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result]Minerals in Animal and Human Nutrition - Second Edition
By Lee Russell McDowell [/url]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATIVE CULTURES

NATIVE AMERICAN TRAILS

In some instances, buffalo trails, such as the ones leading into the great salt lick near the future Nashville, were up to four feet wide and worn as much as two feet below ground level...

...Shells were especially prized on the interior, while deerskins were desired on the coasts, and these were traded regularly. Salt was another item of exchange, as noted by the earliest explorers.

http://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/imageg ... tryID=T106

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HISTORY

As a precious and portable commodity, salt has long been a cornerstone of economies throughout history. In fact, researcher M.R. Bloch conjectured that civilization began along the edges of the desert because of the natural surface deposits of salt found there.

http://www.cargillsalt.com/dc_salt_about_hist_salt.htm

History of salt
http://www.saltinstitute.org/38.html

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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 17:31:22

Anecdotal. I'd go a year without salt for $1,000.

If you felt that was a moral concern I could get bloodwork done thruout. :)

For $100K I'd got the rest of my life. :)
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 17:37:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '[')b]Anecdotal. I'd go a year without salt for $1,000.

If you felt that was a moral concern I could get bloodwork done thruout. :)

For $100K I'd got the rest of my life. :)
This is biology, the story you told me about is anecdotal at best.
And if you go to the BIOLOGY AND NUTRITION quote you'll notice that salt
deficiency hits children hardest. This is probably due to adults having
stores of salt in their bones. So sure you might live a year without salt,
just like you can live a year without calcium. But either way, chances
are you'd be ruining your body and your health by doing that.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 17:48:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'H')ow about popcorn. I mean, unpopped popcorn.
microwaves?
Pop it in a pan. Doomers and doomer popcorn go hand in hand. [smilie=new_popcornsmiley.gif] I'm a poet and I didn't even know it!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') know lots of well intentioned people that still refuse to use microwaves because the 'waves' are radioactive.
Yeah and 90% of people think they are above average. It's a funny world... :lol:
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 18:31:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou'd die and I'd take the money out of your pocket. :twisted:

I wouldn't die.

steam, people need trace amounts of sodium & chloride but we don't need sodium-chloride just like we need minerals but we don't need rock dust.

Sodium in food is bioavailable you know.

Don't get me wrong, if I was an end-of-the-world doomer I would stock salt (unrefined sea/rock salt not chemically refined sodium-chloride which isn't any more natural than isolated zinc or copper), it's a useful thing to have for a variety of reasons. And in fact I like salt for taste but I've gone without it for months at a time & wouldn't die without it.

I fed my cats almost 100% raw meat, organs & eggs for a long period (until it became cost prohibitive). Why didn't their bones atrophy without salt?

BTW, steamy, my anecdotal comments were directed at the Native American culture reference.

From your only post

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '(')Dietary deficiency is uncommon)

Does anyone know anyone diagnosed who developed a serious health problem due to a salt-free diet?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, infants fed formulations with low NACL developed severe metabolic alkalosis because of CL deficiency. Sodium deficiency would only rarely be expected and only in populations that consume no salt and rely entirely on plant food grown in inland areas low in soil NA. Early signs and symptoms of a Na deficiency would be a progressive fall in urinary NA, and a dramatic reduction in work capacity and psychologic function...

This is not valid evidence. That's like creating formulating a baby formula delibrately lacking in Iron or Zinc or Selenium and then noting the baby became deficient in those minerals. It's a wonder baby's can grow & survive on formula at all really! Breastmilk doesn't contain bonded NaCl and babies manage to grow & survive on that.

At what age is non-bonded sodium chloride no longer enough?
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Revi » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 18:54:39

I think we get plenty of salt in a normal diet, but the lack of iodine in some places really messed people up. I think there was a part of Michigan where the people had goiters before the second world war.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 19:21:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') think we get plenty of salt in a normal diet, but the lack of iodine in some places really messed people up. I think there was a part of Michigan where the people had goiters before the second world war.

Yeah, well, just another thing to think about when living off the land.

You don't need a supplement though (though you could certainly take one). Food sources of idoine

Of course if you're homsteading you're going to want to make sure you've got the minerals in your soil otherwise you won't get them in your food.

Salt is a dietary supplement, just like vitamin B12 (which steamy got on me about for recommending in leiu of the environmentally diastorous practice of assembly line meat farming).

Even the article posted said sodium deficiency is rare. For anyone concerned about problems there's always blood work (fairly cheap).

But the claim that "you will die if you stop eating table salt for X amount of time" seems dubious. All it takes is one example to disprove an absolute statement like that.

If someone wants to make a guinea pig of me I'd play along for the right amount of green. ;)
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 22:44:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') fed my cats almost 100% raw meat, organs & eggs for a long period (until it became cost prohibitive). Why didn't their bones atrophy without salt?
Baby chicks are full of salt, so are the eggs they come from.
When a chick forms in the egg it's blood and bones must have the
appropriate concentration of salts. So you were feeding your cats
tasty salty chick blood. Did that really need explanation?

The discussion however is how well do people do without salt. The
book and medical article I quoted discussed this issue. Adults with
more salt already in their body will last longer, children will run into
problems more quickly. Seriously, if you were debating if people can
live without sugar I would agree with you. But salt is a combination
of chemical elements needed for the chemistry of our cells. Your
cells won't work without salt, that's life. You're arguing with a
chemistry book. You know someone who said they are doing
something not very smart, but that doesn't change the chemistry of
human cells. You're friend is hurting them self, so what does that
prove? That there is another person in the world getting by with an
eating disorder? Bulimics think puking all the time is healthy too.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou'd die and I'd take the money out of your pocket. :twisted:

I wouldn't die.
Sorry but my money is with pstarr. But my guess is you'd mess your body and brain up,
then in a year or two more then you'd go. A child would go faster.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')odium in food is bioavailable you know.
Bioavailable, I don't feel you understand this word very well.
Anyway, I posted a couple articles on plant eating mammals
population, ability to live and reproduce linked to salt availability.
And it's the same deal for us if we try to survive on only plants.
That's one of the advantages of being an awful meat eater, you can
get salts from the salty blood in meats you eat so you don't have to
lick the ground for salts like a cow. But hey, humans need salt and
can lick salt just like a cow, so what's your problem with salt?
You're just picking problems with random things?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')TW, steamy, my anecdotal comments were directed at the Native American culture reference.You said to me in person that you were not aware of Native
Americans using salt deposits, salt licks or anything like that, so I
posted an article on the importance of salt to Native Americans just for you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')necdotal evidence - Definition

(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity: the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy or untrue.

(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence.
The history of Native Americans is neither "1. Hearsay" or "2. Used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow."
Therefore you are using the term "anecdotal evidence" inappropriately in your argument.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'D')oes anyone know anyone diagnosed who developed a serious health problem due to a salt-free diet?Does anyone know someone with leprocy? Seriously, there is a
medical term for salt deficiency because it happens.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, infants fed formulations with low NACL developed severe metabolic alkalosis because of CL deficiency. Sodium deficiency would only rarely be expected and only in populations that consume no salt and rely entirely on plant food grown in inland areas low in soil NA. Early signs and symptoms of a Na deficiency would be a progressive fall in urinary NA, and a dramatic reduction in work capacity and psychologic function...
This is not valid evidence. That's like creating formulating a baby formula deliberately lacking in Iron...If you said that people can live without Iron in their diets and I
posted an example of what happens when people are deficient in
iron, that would be appropriate. But instead you said people can
live without salt in their diet and what I posted is a good example
showing that people cannot live without salt. Also this is a good
example of what happens when mothers think they can feed their
small child a diet with no salt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A')t what age is non-bonded sodium chloride no longer enough?At no age, growing children and elderly are simply more susceptible
to problems due to deficiency, but cells of all ages use salt in their chemistry.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')odium in food is bioavailable you know...

Breastmilk doesn't contain bonded NaCl...You don't have any idea what you're talking about. You have no
idea what is bioavaliable or not, at best I think you're quoting a
"bioavaliable" marketing add aimed at hip young people. Most of
the adds throwing around the word bioavaliable are bioBS, that's
the supplements industry advertising not reality. Reality requires
careful study of the efficiency cells convert different chemicals.
And cells are very good at breaking bonds for many chemicals to
make them available. On the otherhand, slogans about bioavaliable
chemicals don't really require any study or thinking at all. A product
might as well say "digestible" on the label and have as much
meaning the way the word "bioavaliable" gets thrown around.
The chemistry guys I've known in the supplements industry know
when you see that on a label, it's usually just marketing. But whatever.

Breastmilk has these elements in it because they are needed.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')omposition of Breast Milk

The mean concentrations of protein, sodium, chloride, and potassium in early preterm milk were adequate to meet the estimated requirements for the preterm infant.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... t/68/4/490


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A')t what age is non-bonded sodium chloride no longer enough?Bonded, non-bonded, I think you're just confused and it's not that
you reach an age that you don't need it, just growing children need more.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')salt is a most essential ingredient of the body. In their order of importance, oxygen, water, salt, and potassium rank as the primary elements for survival of the human body. About 27 percent of the salt content of the body is stored in the bones in the form of crystals. It is said that the salt crystals are naturally used to make bones hard. Thus a salt deficiency could also be responsible for the development of osteoporosis".
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/pu ... sity.shtml

Facepalm
Maybe you just can't accept that your hip friend is full of it and
harming himself, slowly messing himself up and eventually his
brain and other organs. That or you don't trust any branch of
science because "It's all part of the system man...". Seriously, you're
arguing about the importance of salt? You're arguing people can live
without adding salt to their diets??? Herbavores can't but somehow vegans can???

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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 31 Dec 2008, 22:53:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'E')ven the article posted said sodium deficiency is rare.
People who think animals can live without salt are even more rare.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'B')ut the claim that "you will die if you stop eating table salt for X
amount of time" seems dubious.
You think a medical condition called Hyponatremia is dubious but some
nutjob with an eating disorder knows the real truth? Maybe you have
a problem with trusting doctors? Just trying to understand why you
disregard what's in a medical book but trust some guy who only eats
nuts and fruit (as you described) telling you animals don't need salt.
My best explanation is maybe you've got trust issues with doctors,
but I don't know.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Nefarious » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 00:17:01

I would be interesting to see somebody go all through the summer working outdoors in 90+ degree heat, sweating their arse off and not eat any salt.
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