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What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 00:54:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')so what's your problem with salt?
You're just picking problems with random things?

I don't have a problem with salt (though most people have too much of it).

Just pointing out that the body needs sodium & chloride (and other minerals), there is no RDA for sodium-chloride.

The body doesn't need sodium-chloride anymore than it needs potassium-chloride (though I'm sure animals would lick up the stuff if they were kept in a lab on a potassium deficient diet).

Pure NaCl (as opposed to the salt in the ocean which provides trace minerals along with sodium) doesn't exist in nature anymore than refined sugar exists in nature (more on this below). Why load up your body with something that's an industrially extracted product? If you're convinced salt is necessary or is most convenient choice for adequate sodium at least use unrefined salt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ioavailable, I don't feel you understand this word very well.

Actually I understand it well. Do you?

Also, plant eating mammals generally have pretty limited diets. They can't eat high sodium foods. They don't have access to the ocean, etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou said to me in person that you were not aware of Native
Americans using salt deposits, salt licks or anything like that, so I
posted an article on the importance of salt to Native Americans just for you.

I understand and appreciate your time & effort. Just that it doesn't constitute definitive proof that humans die without salt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he history of Native Americans is neither "1. Hearsay" or "2. Used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow."
Therefore you are using the term "anecdotal evidence" inappropriately in your argument.

I used the word incorrectly re : #1. The fact that some tribes will utilize salt licks is not enough evidence to support your conculsion however.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes anyone know someone with leprocy? Seriously, there is a
medical term for salt deficiency because it happens.

AFAIK it's sodium deficiency.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a')nd what I posted is a good example
showing that people cannot live without salt. Also this is a good
example of what happens when mothers think they can feed their
small child a diet with no salt.

Not true. It was a study of infant formula with delibrately low levels of sodium. That study was borderline abuse, IMO. No infant that doesn't use formula eats salt, I don't know many women who sprinkle it on their breasts.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')t no age, growing children and elderly are simply more susceptible
to problems due to deficiency, but cells of all ages use salt in their chemistry.

The human body uses a sodium/potassium pump to move fluids in and out of the cells. For 99% of the population adaquete potassium is more of a problem to acquire than sodium. Since the average American simply isn't going to eat the amount of fruit & vegetables that they should & will not discontinue using salt they probably should use potassium salt.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/536353

Be a shame to die of hypertension living in your bunker with salted food one of life's only pleasures. Refined salt in large quantities will certainly throw your electrolytes out of whack, especially on a limited Matt Savinaresque diet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou don't have any idea what you're talking about. You have no
idea what is bioavaliable or not, at best I think you're quoting a
"bioavaliable" marketing add aimed at hip young people. Most of
the adds throwing around the word bioavaliable are bioBS, that's
the supplements industry advertising not reality. Reality requires
careful study of the efficiency cells convert different chemicals.
And cells are very good at breaking bonds for many chemicals to
make them available. On the otherhand, slogans about bioavaliable
chemicals don't really require any study or thinking at all. A product
might as well say "digestible" on the label and have as much
meaning the way the word "bioavaliable" gets thrown around.
The chemistry guys I've known in the supplements industry know
when you see that on a label, it's usually just marketing. But whatever.

I'm sorry man but now you're just assuming & insulting my intelligence to boot.

Bioavailability is a legitimate term. For example there are many different forms of Vitamin C. They're not all going to absorb at the same rate.

Ironically, advertisers use the public's lack of understanding of bioavailability against them. The food industry can pack in the lowest quality synthetic nutrients into a food product & claim it has 20% of this & 50% of that but that doesn't speak to how much is actually utilized. You really think your "Total" cereal gives you everything you need for the day.

Vitamin B6 absorption from cereal is poor

Not a shock to me as I was diagnosed with low levels of B6, beta carotene & zinc in younger years (probably not these days as back then I ate virtually no fruit & veg for betacarotene & now I supplement with a whole food based B-complex & zinc [forgot what kind but it's fairly bioavaiable, not the best but money is a factor]).

Many different factors effect bioavailablity. For example eating an oily salad dressing with your vegetables (or any meal with alot of fat-soluble vitamins) will increase uptake by a significant margin.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/2/396

It's an academic term, if you see it being misused you can contact the better business bureau.

I've researched this time of thing a great deal. I had major stomach problems & pretty much persistent pain in my early twenties. Actually it was dietary reasons that led me to try to understand agriculture which led me to peak oil (since conventional agriculture as it stands is so petroleum dependent). If I didn't have a scientific curiousity about nutrition I wouldn't have ever gotten here. :)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')reastmilk has these elements in it because they are needed.
Quote:
Composition of Breast Milk

The mean concentrations of protein, sodium, chloride, and potassium in early preterm milk were adequate to meet the estimated requirements for the preterm infant.
See the comma there. Sodium, chloride =/ sodium chloride. Sodium and chloride exist independent of the refined white stuff at Stop & Shop.

Keep in mind, you're the one making the definitive claim - that the human animal will certainly die (in how much time, I don't know) if deprived of sodium-chloride salt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')onded, non-bonded, I think you're just confused and it's not that
you reach an age that you don't need it, just growing children need more.
Again you're the one making the distinction. You're claimed sodium & chloride are not enough, we need them together via table salt. There is no evidence to support this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')acepalm
Maybe you just can't accept that your hip friend is full of it and
harming himself, slowly messing himself up and eventually his
brain and other organs. That or you don't trust any branch of
science because "It's all part of the system man...". Seriously, you're
arguing about the importance of salt? You're arguing people can live
without adding salt to their diets??? Herbivores can't but somehow vegans can???

You think a medical condition called Hyponatremia is dubious but some
nutjob with an eating disorder knows the real truth? Maybe you have
a problem with trusting doctors? Just trying to understand why you
disregard what's in a medical book but trust some guy who only eats
nuts and fruit (as you described) telling you animals don't need salt.
My best explanation is maybe you've got trust issues with doctors,
but I don't know.
Not sure how to reply to this. The guy got his blood tested (by medical doctors) and his sodium levels are normal. After ten years or so without table salt. Plenty of other people also don't eat salt & haven't for many years. You can attack their character but that doesn't change reality. You've made numerous accusations against me whereas you don't seem to understand the basic difference between sodium-chloride & sodium which makes your accusations of my ignorance in chemistry somewhat ironic.

I didn't say "Hyponatremia is dubious", I said I don't believe the claim that the only way to get adequate sodium is with sodium-chloride salt. This claim is spurious.

Again, the body needs an electrolyte balance. In general sodium-chloride used beyond small amounts disrupts this balance.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/25/suppl_3/262S

Stocking up on, say, coconut water, makes more sense than stocking up on industrial table salt. Coconut water contains Sodium & Potassium is more balanced proportions so much so that in many countries where saline solution (which is a HUGE money maker) is unaffordable coconut water can be substituted without ill effect (as long as it's uncontaminated of course).

link

One more thing to consider that I'm not sure you're aware of (and likewise many others are not). The refined "pure" sodium-chloride salt you find at a grocery store is not the same as salt you'd find in the ocean or at a salt lick. One of natural salt's redeeming features (in moderation) is that it is abudent in trace minerals.

[spoil]
From wiki on Celtic Sea Salt (obviously proportions will vary depending on area & time of salt).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'Chloride 601.25 50.90000
Sodium 460 33.00000
Sulfur 9.7 0.82000
Magnesium 5.2 0.44100
Potassium 2.7 0.22700
Calcium 1.5 0.12800
Silicon 1.2 0.05200
Carbon 0.6 0.04200
Iron 0.14 0.01200
Aluminum 0.11 0.00950
Praseodymium 0.04 0.00290
Strontium 0.03 0.00275
Erbium 0.02 0.00195
Zinc 0.03 0.00275
Copper 0.02 0.00195
Tin 0.02 0.00192
Manganese 0.02 0.00180
Cerium 0.02 0.00172
Fluoride 0.01 0.00109
Rubidium 0.01 0.00084
Gallium 0.01 0.00083
Boron 0.01 0.00082
Titanium 0.01 0.00079
Bromine 0.01 0.00071')[/spoil]

On a limited herbivorous diet eating plants from the same soil year after year it makes sense animals (and/or humans) will develop deficiencies. Real rock or sea salt can be seen as a dietary supplement.

Caution should be taken however, especially in today's world with (full of heavy metals) since we don't need any more heavy metals than we can get. If you want to use unrefined salt it pays to check it's exact chemical makeup to avoid getting too much.

You're a smart guy Mike & I know I (and everyone on this forum) can learn a lot from you on many subjects, but you're in over your head here, keep in mind I suffered with stomach ailments for a number of years & did a fair amount of research & tried many things on myself while trying to understand nutrition & apply it to my own life. I'm not an "uneducated vegan" any more than you (as a peakoil.com member) are some raving yahoo chicken little. I have to admit, I took a bit of offense to this (hence my indepth reply). Appeals to emotion, funny pics, chemically perverted infant formula & a biology article that doesn't even support your point (that humans absolutely need to get their sodium from salt form, see below*) maybe seem convincing enough at first superficial glance but, they don't hold up under scrutiny.

*"Since the majority of plants (note the word majority) do not provide sufficient amounts of sodium and may lack adequate chloride (note, sodium & chloride & two separate needs, you seem to be mixed up on this) , salt licks are a necessary part of most (the word most is not synonymous will all just as majority isn't) free-range herbivore diets. "

But listen, it's New Years. I'm not going to spend my last minutes of '08 arguing over salt.

I'm going out to mingle with the masses. Happy New Year all. :)

Note : edited a few times for content & spelling.
Last edited by Narz on Thu 01 Jan 2009, 15:16:15, edited 5 times in total.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 02:26:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat medium of exchange after currency is worthless?


Pussy? It's been commoditized for millenia. Labor?

Any commodity will be tradable at that point.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 08:51:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat medium of exchange after currency is worthless?


Pussy? It's been commoditized for millenia. Labor?

Any commodity will be tradable at that point.


No thats what you are going to buy with your medium of exchange. The question is what is she going to take from you and put away before she takes you upstairs.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Cloud9 » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 09:19:26

The larger question is what will she give you when she takes you upstairs?
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 09:45:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he larger question is what will she give you when she takes you upstairs?


Well yah there has always been that. maybe condoms will be the major currency or one of them at least.

Thinking about the original question a little more you have to have something that most people will except as having the same value to everyone. I would not be surprized if ammunition became the most prevailant currency post peak. A 30-06 round would be worth $5.00, a 30-30 about $1.00 and 22 long rifles about a dime each. storable durable and a known value. Reloaders would become the new counterfeiters and banks would weigh reloads to check the powder charge of rounds from questionable sources. a box of Remington core- locs new in the original box would be the gold standard.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby JJ » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 10:26:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') think we get plenty of salt in a normal diet, but the lack of iodine in some places really messed people up. I think there was a part of Michigan where the people had goiters before the second world war.


Philipinnes comes to mind.....
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby miles392 » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 10:27:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he larger question is what will she give you when she takes you upstairs?


What young pretty girls have given men for thousands of years. If you don't know what that is your not fit to be on the internet :P
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby JJ » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 10:41:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miles392', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he larger question is what will she give you when she takes you upstairs?


What young pretty girls have given men for thousands of years. If you don't know what that is your not fit to be on the internet :P


the gift that keeps on giving? some things don't wash off with soap and water....:)
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Thu 01 Jan 2009, 12:48:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat medium of exchange after currency is worthless?


Pussy? It's been commoditized for millenia. Labor?

Any commodity will be tradable at that point.

:lol: Even monkeys will buy & sell it.

NY Times : Monkey Business

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..

Something else happened during that chaotic scene, something that convinced Chen of the monkeys' true grasp of money. Perhaps the most distinguishing characteristic of money, after all, is its fungibility, the fact that it can be used to buy not just food but anything. During the chaos in the monkey cage, Chen saw something out of the corner of his eye that he would later try to play down but in his heart of hearts he knew to be true. What he witnessed was probably the first observed exchange of money for sex in the history of monkeykind. (Further proof that the monkeys truly understood money: the monkey who was paid for sex immediately traded the token in for a grape.)

...
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby steam_cannon » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 05:03:58

Salt

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') just don't believe it's necessary, that's all.
Going back to this, what you are saying would be considered
very wrong if someone was removing all sources of salt from a childs
diet and would be considered an eating disorder if an adult was
doing that to themselves.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') didn't say "Hyponatremia is dubious", I said I'm skeptical of the
claim that the only way to get adaquete sodium is with sodium-chorlide.
The way you're talking one would get the impression you don't
think the body needs chlorine. Whatever but sodium and chlorine
do not normally exist uncombined. Sodium is commonly combined with
chlorine in nature as what's called a metal salt. There are a number
of metal salts, and sure when people use the word salt they usually
are referring to sodium chloride. Also since sodium is not normally
found in it's dangerous metallic state, people often just use the
word Sodium.

Below is an article that explains a little about the uses of Sodium
and Chlorine in the body. There are many more articles, though
people don't normally need to see so much research to understand
that Sodium Metal Salts, Potassium Metal Salts are both needed for
maintaining life, and that herbivores normally cannot get enough
sodium salts from plants. Most people get that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wikipedia', '[')b]Salt is a dietary mineral composed primarily of sodium
chloride that is essential for animal life, but toxic to most land
plants. Salt flavor is one of the basic tastes, and salt is the
most popular food seasoning.[citation needed] Salt is also an
important preservative.

Chloride and sodium ions, the two major components of
salt, are necessary for the survival of all known living creatures,
including humans. Salt is involved in regulating the water content
(fluid balance) of the body. Salt cravings may be caused by trace
mineral deficiencies as well as by a deficiency of sodium chloride
itself. Conversely, overconsumption of salt increases the risk of
health problems, including high blood pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt
Since salt tends to be toxic to plants, if you think about it, it follows
that you can't really expect plants to be a great source of salt.
That's why the animals I posted about needed salt. Same deal for people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')ee the comma there. Sodium, chloride =/ sodium chloride. Sodium and chloride exist independent of the white stuff.
Sodium and Chlorine normally do not exist uncombined.
They are both highly reactive. Also in the intricacies of cellular
chemistry, they do not have to be combined with each other,
though both are necessary for life.

If you'd like heres a nice article on the chemistry and importance of
sodium and chlorine in the human body.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americanchemistry.com', '
')This extracellular body fluid is mostly water, along with the charged atoms (ions) of sodium and chloride. Chloride plays an essential role in a delicate balancing act: providing for the electrical neutrality and the correct pressure of body fluids, and keeping the acid-base balance of the body.

One result of this balancing act is that the amount of water we retain and concentrations of salt in our bodies remain relatively constant over time. We don't dry up nor do we bloat uncontrollably. When changes occur, the balance reasserts itself. For example, after heavy exercise and perspiration the body requires salt; and we are usually thirsty after eating salty food.

Human Body: Muscles

Sodium ions play an important role in our body's communication system. The nimbleness of a world class pianist or the dexterity of an Olympian athlete depend on the inner working of the central nervous system. Sodium ions are vital to the transmission of impulses from our brains to our muscles through the complex network of nerve cells.

On the flip side are the chloride ions, which assist in balancing the electrical charges throughout our nervous system.

Human Body: Digestive System

Chloride ions are building blocks of hydrochloric acid, which is essential to our digestive system. Hydrochloric acid made in the stomach has two main purposes: to help destroy germs that arrived with the food; and to help pepsin, an enzyme, break down the proteins found in the food stuffs, ensuring that essential nutrients are made available to the body.

Human Body: Immune System

In the immune system, which is charged with fighting off the daily invasion of germs, chlorine is there to lend a hand. When infections take place, hypochlorite -- a chlorine-containing compound which is a well-known disinfectant -- forms in white blood cells. Hypochlorite itself attacks the germs, or helps to activate other agents that do the work...

http://tinyurl.com/a5ux6t


Bioavailability
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')'m sorry man but now you're just assuming & insulting my intelligence to boot.I think you're wrong about a lot of things. If you feel that insults
your intelligence, that's your choice to feel that way. Also experience
and intelligence are two different things. You're telling me about a
guy that told you that you can live without eating salt. That's your
experience, my experience is that what that guy told you doesn't
sit well with the normal health and chemistry of the human body.
If you you think that insults your intelligence, that's your interpretation,
not mine.

And yes I still disagree with your use of the term "bioavailability"
and I believe it has nothing to do in a discussion on salts. However...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')'ve researched this time of thing a great deal. I had major stomach problems & pretty much persistent pain in my early twenties.You know the food supplements industry from the view of a desperate
person seeking help. That doesn't make you educated. And myself,
regarding bioBS I'm speaking about my experience with chemists in
the industry and from my experience I'd say half the "knowledge"
passed along by word of mouth sellers is BS, studies flaunting
insignificant differences and passing out hooks to draw in needy people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')t's an academic term, if you see it being misused you can contact the better business bureau.You're wrong, misinformation is not illegal. It's not illegal in the
regular foods industry or in the pill poppin natural foods industry.
Sponsoring grass roots campaigns to sell pills or hemp seeds is not
illegal, but it sure does prop up a lot of bad ideas.

Regarding the articles on Bioavaliability you posted, there are
articles that use the term correctly however too much of the
common use is exaggerations and squabbing over who's half an
inch taller on a chart by people with questionable credentials to
begin with. And IMO, on the grass roots level it's mostly overblown.

And you believed his story!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')Not sure how to reply to this. The guy got his blood tested (by medical doctors)
and his sodium levels are normal. Maybe he's lying.OMG and you believed this story!

I've known people with eating disorders before and they usually
believe what they're saying, but ya know you still can't believe
them. You mentioned to me that they guy eats fruit & nuts and he
says that the nuts are not salted. Simplest explanation is he's
probably lying or he doesn't think low salt means unsalted.
Whatever he is doing lying or just a screw up, what he is saying
isn't compatible with the chemistry of human beings so somethings
got to be wrong here.

The Breatharian Hoax

What you described is right up there with the guys who were going
around lying to people convincing smart people that they could live
on sunlight and water. Many intelligent people actually believed
them. Intelligent people pick up wrong ideas too and often very
quickly. Being wrong is not an insult.

Regaring the Breatharians, what it turned out was they were simply lying.
They were saying these amazing things and sneaking off once in a while
to eat. People are still running this scam.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')Breatharianism” is the belief (and alleged practice) that with the right discipline and technique - a human body can live indefinitely without any food or water, and that it can sustain itself just fine through other unexplored means; like absorbed energy from sunlight, and nutrients from the air (or by other spiritual means related to Hinduism). “Inedia” is the original concept that Breatharianism comes from, stemming from the practice by eastern ascetics to fast and be nourished by the Hindu life force “prana” only. Many believers in Breatharianism spout un-confirmable claims that there have existed ancient adepts and yogis who have been living on air and light for millennia. Some pure-food enthusiasts see Breatharianism as the pinnacle of enlightenment, with the path leading from vegetarianism, to veganism and “frutarianism” (the belief that vegetable plants have feelings), up to a raw food diets, and then water only and then nothing but air and sunlight. Breatharians believe that they can turn their bodies into “photovoltaic cells” that convert the rays of the sun into nutritional energy.

The intriguing practice has produced many modern celebrity Breatharian “gurus” throughout the later 20th century and beyond, all who publish books, conduct seminars, have established institutes and share a controversial and sometimes criminal image. Bretharianism is regarded by most as, at best, nothing more than parlor trick kookery with scam-tendencies, and at worst a practice that can kill the naive and willing who attempt it (of which there are quite a few documented cases).

http://www.markallencam.com/?p=19

This world has a lot of bad people and bad ideas too... :roll:
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby ki11ercane » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 20:00:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'W')hen it becomes apparent that it is about to hit the fan with peak oil economically, what should one do financially?

I am personally planning 2009 as a year when I stockpile ETFs in Oil, like ticker USO.

I figure when TSHTF I need to sell all ETFs and stocks take profits as get cash, but then I should use the cash to buy something tangible.

Should it be gold, silver, what?


My first round of questions on this topic for you would be:

1. How old are you?

2. Whose currency are you referring to?

3. Do you have any kids?

If you answered:

1. Between 18 and 110 years old.

2. Any currency that is currently not hyper inflated at this moment in time. (Zimbabwe for example)

3. I have none and I have no intention ever to have them thereby ending my bloodline and family tree.

Then for you and for your non-existent kin, this question is moot. You will not see in your lifetime your currency becoming devalued to a point where you have to solely rely on the trade of food, silver, gold, bullets, your hot body, or <insert whatever you want here> in replacement of a paper currency. Your kids may see it in their lifetime around their eighties assuming they are under 3 years old right now. Your grand kids will most likely see it in their fifties if your kids are in their mid 20's just having their first kids right now. If my daughter has a kid at 25 by the time that kid was 50 I will be 107 years old. I may see this phenom for about 20 minutes before I kick off this mortal coil.


If you answered:

1. I am not born yet, and I intend to come into existence within 75-100 years from today, and I am posting from wherever babies come from before they are born.

2. My currency is already hyper inflated. (ie. you live in Zimbabwe)

3. I have kids planned for 2086. Gotta get the nursery in order before the 22nd century.


Then yes, you need to plan to have a replacement for your extinct paper dollars. You should be planning now to store silver, gold, bullets, food, or <insert whatever you want here> to use for barter.

Sorry for sounding sarcastic, but the possibility that anyone here other than our large Zimbabwean posters here on PO regardless of their age thinking they or their kids or POSSIBLY your grand kids will see this happening is beyond remote. We have clearly seen our governments and pretty much any other government in the world will prop up their economy through currency production and iffy accounting to keep the status quo. You have nothing to worry about.

What people should be doing is preparing wealth (money, land, house, investments, silver, gold, food, preps, bullets, etc.) for their kids for their kids NOW. You should also be preparing a "way of life" and an "education" for your kids etc. to replicate if they need it if this happens. Then when you take the Big Sleep you can rest assured you did your best to prepare the generations ahead you for the currency collapse you're referring to.

Bottom line, unless you're in a country like Zimbabwe right now, this is not going to happen to you in your lifetime.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby angrybill » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 20:08:44

Why are you so paranoid to the point of stockpiling? I see not a need for any such action.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Pops » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 20:53:55

If you are thinking the US$ will be worthless at any time in the medium term I hope you are planning to be pretty well self sufficient in all respects.

Are you?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby angrybill » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 21:04:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')f you are thinking the US$ will be worthless at any time in the medium term I hope you are planning to be pretty well self sufficient in all respects.

Are you?

I think the US dollar will be of of value. i.e. stronger in the future againist all other major currencies for at least the next 2 years.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Starvid » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 21:07:49

Why, pray, should currency be or become worthless?

If you do believe such silliness, by all means just send your "worthless" currency to me.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 21:55:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'G')oing back to this, what you are saying would be considered
very wrong if someone was removing all sources of salt from a childs
diet and would be considered an eating disorder if an adult was
doing that to themselves.

No it wouldn't. And who cares what society considers anyway.

Homosexuality was deemed a classified disease until just recently. Now, being "obsessed" with a healthy lifestyle is considered one (orthorexia or something).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') didn't say "Hyponatremia is dubious", I said I'm skeptical of the
claim that the only way to get adaquete sodium is with sodium-chorlide.
The way you're talking one would get the impression you don't
think the body needs chlorine. Whatever but sodium and chlorine
do not normally exist uncombined. Sodium is commonly combined with
chlorine in nature as what's called a metal salt. There are a number
of metal salts, and sure when people use the word salt they usually
are referring to sodium chloride. Also since sodium is not normally
found in it's dangerous metallic state, people often just use the
word Sodium.

Below is an article that explains a little about the uses of Sodium
and Chlorine in the body. There are many more articles, though
people don't normally need to see so much research to understand
that Sodium Metal Salts, Potassium Metal Salts are both needed for
maintaining life, and that herbivores normally cannot get enough
sodium salts from plants. Most people get that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wikipedia', '[')b]Salt is a dietary mineral composed primarily of sodium
chloride that is essential for animal life, but toxic to most land
plants. Salt flavor is one of the basic tastes, and salt is the
most popular food seasoning.[citation needed] Salt is also an
important preservative.

Chloride and sodium ions, the two major components of
salt, are necessary for the survival of all known living creatures,
including humans. Salt is involved in regulating the water content
(fluid balance) of the body. Salt cravings may be caused by trace
mineral deficiencies as well as by a deficiency of sodium chloride
itself. Conversely, overconsumption of salt increases the risk of
health problems, including high blood pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt
Since salt tends to be toxic to plants, if you think about it, it follows
that you can't really expect plants to be a great source of salt.
That's why the animals I posted about needed salt. Same deal for people.

Chloride can be found in food also. Salt is toxic to plants in more than small doses but that doesn't mean sodium cannot accumulate in plants.

For example a liter of coconut water'll give you almost 50% your USRDA for sodium.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/nut- ... cts/3115/2


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ']')See the comma there. Sodium, chloride =/ sodium chloride. Sodium and chloride exist independent of the white stuff.
Sodium and Chlorine normally do not exist uncombined.
They are both highly reactive. Also in the intricacies of cellular
chemistry, they do not have to be combined with each other,
though both are necessary for life.
We're in agreement then.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')Bioavailability
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')'m sorry man but now you're just assuming & insulting my intelligence to boot.I think you're wrong about a lot of things. If you feel that insults
your intelligence, that's your choice to feel that way. Also experience
and intelligence are two different things. You're telling me about a
guy that told you that you can live without eating salt. That's your
experience, my experience is that what that guy told you doesn't
sit well with the normal health and chemistry of the human body.
If you you think that insults your intelligence, that's your interpretation,
not mine.
The way you put it seemed offputting is all.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')And yes I still disagree with your use of the term "bioavailability"
What about it do you disagree with?

You claimed I didn't understand the word, I showed you I did, what's still misunderstood?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')and I believe it has nothing to do in a discussion on salts.
It's the central issue in this discussion (tangent) since you're saying sodium & chloride necessary cannot be absorbed well enough to sustain life from food alone.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')'ve researched this time of thing a great deal. I had major stomach problems & pretty much persistent pain in my early twenties.You know the food supplements industry from the view of a desperate
person seeking help. That doesn't make you educated. And myself,
regarding bioBS I'm speaking about my experience with chemists in
the industry and from my experience I'd say half the "knowledge"
passed along by word of mouth sellers is BS, studies flaunting
insignificant differences and passing out hooks to draw in needy people.
Did you read anything I posted? I posted academic articles on bioavailablity (not a single advertisement). I'm not talking about knowledge passed on word of mouth, you are. Ironically the first part of your sentence makes the second half rather funny "By word of mouth I've heard half of what you hear word of mouth is BS".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')t's an academic term, if you see it being misused you can contact the better business bureau.You're wrong, misinformation is not illegal. It's not illegal in the
regular foods industry or in the pill poppin natural foods industry.
Well it should be. I would support tighter regulations instead of simply slapping the "not meant to prevent or cure any disease" tag.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'R')egarding the articles on Bioavaliability you posted, there are
articles that use the term correctly however too much of the
common use is exaggerations and squabbing over who's half an
inch taller on a chart by people with questionable credentials to
begin with. And IMO, on the grass roots level it's mostly overblown.
How do you mean "grass roots"?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')b]And you believed his story!


I've known people with eating disorders before and they usually
believe what they're saying, but ya know you still can't believe
them. You mentioned to me that they guy eats fruit & nuts and he
says that the nuts are not salted. Simplest explanation is he's
probably lying or he doesn't think low salt means unsalted.
Whatever he is doing lying or just a screw up, what he is saying
isn't compatible with the chemistry of human beings so somethings
got to be wrong here.
I know where he got his tests done. I could call the place but medical centers generally don't give out records.

I lived with the guy for a couple of months in Florida before I moved to Miami and he didn't have salt in the house. Any health store sells nuts without salt in bulk bins but generally he'd order them via the net which is cheaper.

Maybe the coconuts the dude ate were enough to keep his electrolytes balanced. Don't know. Maybe he (and thousands of other people who claim not to eat salt secretly stash it and add it to their water or something in private.

Also, experimenting with different diets =/ an eating disorder.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')b]The Breatharian Hoax

What you described is right up there with the guys who were going
around lying to people convincing smart people that they could live
on sunlight and water. Many intelligent people actually believed
them. Intelligent people pick up wrong ideas too and often very
quickly. Being wrong is not an insult.
I'm fine with being wrong. I like learning. However, as of now it's I simply have your word to go on. Others, including a medical student who is studying nutrition simply recognize the need for electrolytes but we don't necessarily need to get them (including sodium) from salt.

It's really a small point to concede on your part. The body requires sodium & it requires chloride. We can agree on that part. You just seem set in your thinking that filling the need for these minerals thru food is impossible.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'T')his world has a lot of bad people and bad ideas too... :roll:
Indeed. Even very intelligent people mix up salt with electrolytes.

BTW, re : Nefarious on page 3. How about you work in 90 heat with diluted salt water (or water + saltines) & I'll drink coconut water & see who goes into electrolyte imbalance faster. Be kind of like The Long Walk.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 22:08:05

BTW, steam_cannon, I read the wiki entry on salt you linked me to.

Did you see the bit about the Yanomamo Indians?

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content ... a;52/1/146

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Yanomamo Indians are an unacculturated tribe inhabiting the tropical equatorial rain forest of northern Brazil and southern Venezuela who do not use salt in their diet. The group therefore presented an unusual opportunity to study the hormonal regulation of sodium metabolism in a culture with life-long extreme restriction of dietary sodium, with parallel observations on blood pressure. Blood pressures increased from the first to second decade but, in constrast to civilized populations, do not systematically increase during subsequent years of life. In twenty-four hour urine collections on adult male Indians, excretion of sodium averaged only 1 plus or minus 1.5 (SD) mEq. Simultaneous plasma renin activities were elevated and comparable to those of civilized subjects placed for brief periods on 10 mEq sodium diets. Similarly, excretion rates of aldosterone equaled those of acculturated subjects on low sodium diets. The findings suggest that the hormonal adjustments to life-long low sodium intakes are similar to those achieved in acute sodium restriction of civilized man. Parenthetically, these elevated levels of aldosterone and renin were probably the norm for man during much of human evolution and suggest that the values observed in civilized controls are depressed by an excessive salt intake in contemporary diets.


Seems to me what the study is saying is that the human body adapts to it's dietary "environment". This explains how people can live on the highly refined foods of today without becoming either extremely deficient or overloaded for such a long time.

So if you eat tons of salt your body will adapt to excrete as much of it as possible. If you eat little to none your body will be as effecient with it as possible.

The American mythos of "more is better" doesn't necessarily appeal.

There are alot of unusual ideas out there (for Example).

But their being unusual or something you hadn't considered before doesn't make them automatically incorrect.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 22:10:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'W')hy, pray, should currency be or become worthless?

If you do believe such silliness, by all means just send your "worthless" currency to me.

Seconded.

My paypal account is narzinfinite@aol.com

8)

Note : don't try to e-mail me there, haven't checked it in years. dunno if it still exists but paypal won't let me change it.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby bratticus » Fri 02 Jan 2009, 22:59:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat medium of exchange after currency is worthless?


Receipts. Bills of lading. Whatever.
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Re: What medium of exchange after currency is worthless?

Unread postby phaster » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 02:48:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ki11ercane', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'W')hen it becomes apparent that it is about to hit the fan with peak oil economically, what should one do financially?

I am personally planning 2009 as a year when I stockpile ETFs in Oil, like ticker USO.

I figure when TSHTF I need to sell all ETFs and stocks take profits as get cash, but then I should use the cash to buy something tangible.

Should it be gold, silver, what?


My first round of questions on this topic for you would be:

1. How old are you?

2. Whose currency are you referring to?

3. Do you have any kids?

If you answered:

1. Between 18 and 110 years old.

2. Any currency that is currently not hyper inflated at this moment in time. (Zimbabwe for example)

3. I have none and I have no intention ever to have them thereby ending my bloodline and family tree.

Then for you and for your non-existent kin, this question is moot. You will not see in your lifetime your currency becoming devalued to a point where you have to solely rely on the trade of food, silver, gold, bullets, your hot body, or <insert whatever you want here> in replacement of a paper currency. Your kids may see it in their lifetime around their eighties assuming they are under 3 years old right now. Your grand kids will most likely see it in their fifties if your kids are in their mid 20's just having their first kids right now. If my daughter has a kid at 25 by the time that kid was 50 I will be 107 years old. I may see this phenom for about 20 minutes before I kick off this mortal coil.


If you answered:

1. I am not born yet, and I intend to come into existence within 75-100 years from today, and I am posting from wherever babies come from before they are born.

2. My currency is already hyper inflated. (ie. you live in Zimbabwe)

3. I have kids planned for 2086. Gotta get the nursery in order before the 22nd century.


Then yes, you need to plan to have a replacement for your extinct paper dollars. You should be planning now to store silver, gold, bullets, food, or <insert whatever you want here> to use for barter.

Sorry for sounding sarcastic, but the possibility that anyone here other than our large Zimbabwean posters here on PO regardless of their age thinking they or their kids or POSSIBLY your grand kids will see this happening is beyond remote. We have clearly seen our governments and pretty much any other government in the world will prop up their economy through currency production and iffy accounting to keep the status quo. You have nothing to worry about.

What people should be doing is preparing wealth (money, land, house, investments, silver, gold, food, preps, bullets, etc.) for their kids for their kids NOW. You should also be preparing a "way of life" and an "education" for your kids etc. to replicate if they need it if this happens. Then when you take the Big Sleep you can rest assured you did your best to prepare the generations ahead you for the currency collapse you're referring to.

Bottom line, unless you're in a country like Zimbabwe right now, this is not going to happen to you in your lifetime.



I'm glad ya had the common sense to approach the problem by looking at the big picture. Even though we are going thru an economic rough spot, live here in the UAS and the developed world is much better than it is in third world slums.

As far as a medium of exchange after currency is worthless, I'd say it would be knowledge! Think about it for a moment, all the guns and gold are not going to save your ass in jam if suddenly they are gone.

In my book there is no better investment that a sharp mind and a fit body, once ya have that its possible improvise the rest no matter if thats on wall street, main street, in a physics lab, or suddenly stuck somewhere out in the bush.
truth is,...

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