[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', ':')lol:
"Everybody can be Pope?"

I can't believe you believe this! Only cardinals can be Pope, and only when they are under 80 years of age. You believe Roman Church is a democracy? HA! It's an absolute monarchy. The Pope is elected by cardinals, not by "we the people".
Sorry, but none of us will ever be Pope. And me, more than you of course, being a girl!

[linlithgowoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy do people continually skirt over the issue of paedophilia in the Church. How is this any different to abortion or euthanasia? It's even worse IMO, the ultimate betrayal of trust between a priest and his young flock. And yet it is ignored. Why?

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', '
')The Catholic Church is more relevant now than it has ever been. And, pray tell, what are these 'rants on abortion'? Abortion is wrong and is the same as stabbing a new born baby to death - murder. Just because you cant see the baby being torn limb from limb doesn't mean it isn't happening and doesn't mean it isn't dying in total silent agony.

Abortion and euthenasia lead to the dehumanising of people. People are only valued in terms of what benefits they can bring or what skills they have - not for the simple fact that they are a human being.

The Catholic Church is one of the last remaining pillars of light in this dark world we live in. Without Jesus and the Church, there is no hope.

Additionally, i wish people would stop talking about 'conservative' or 'liberal' catholics. The Catholic Church has one true viewpoint which all Catholics must adhere to. You are either a Catholic or you are not. If you do not agree with all of the views of the Catholic Church you are not a Catholic.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t isnt ignored, it is acknowledged. The Pope held a special emergency meeting at the time to express his disgust.

[CarnbY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 'T')he Catholic Church is one of the last remaining pillars of light in this dark world we live in. Without Jesus and the Church, there is no hope.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'D')oes the Catholic church really amount to anything now?

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', 'T')he church has plagued the world for far too long already. It's high time reason and common sense got a chance instead.

[zed]

It seems to me that the Catholic Church's strongest area is now Latin America. Europe's population is slow growing and increasingly nonreligious while Latin America's population is growing rapidly and still mostly Catholic. I think it would be a good message to 'break the mold' of having strictly European popes..

[lorenzo]

The pedophilia case in the USA is a case in itself. It has nothing to do with the universal church as such. The Pope has recognized and condemned it. That suffices.

In any large organization (and the Church is the largest on the planet) there are excesses. The Church is not different.

And this doesn't change her message in any way.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', '
')Sorry, I disagree. If you were right you would have alot less Catholics. Virtually none of the Catholics in my country adhere strictly to Catholicism in the way you suggest. They are part-time Catholics, paying lip service whenever guilt or obligation forces them to... this kind of hypocrisy makes me sick, and yet it's what every Catholic I know does.. and I know ALOT of Catholics.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Condoms encourage sex to be seen as such a consumer product. And hence condoms are bad, considering these effects.

[khebab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', ' ')
The Catholic Church nor any other Christian denomination is responsible for AIDS. It's the liberal mores that are responsible for its spread. The Catholic Church says that deep relations between people, based on loyalty and love, are more important and deserve priority over sex as a consumer product.
Sex is not a consumer product. Condoms encourage sex to be seen as such a consumer product. And hence condoms are bad, considering these effects.
I fully support the conservative view of the Pope on this matter.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'H')ow they condone and expect their people to keep bringing babbies into the world so they can live with AIDS and in starvation?

[Geology_Guy]

When was the last time civilization collapsed and barbarians ran through the streets? It was the fall of the Roman Empire.

The Catholic Church was the only Roman institution that survived the fall of the western Roman Empire.

It will also survive peak oil and will do many good works for humanity.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('khebab', 'A')frica is currently being decimated by AIDS. Condoms are the only defense they can afford and the Catholic Church has not supported that option.

[Ebyss]

How can you compare Roman expansion in Europe with Worldwide resource depletion? The two are totally different phenomena.

All that analogy says is that "Some situations have similar effects", it has no logic to it.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think you are confusing principle and reality.

The principle of abstinence is based on a very broad view on life: when a couple lives loyally together, in a marriage based on love, belief, and catholic practise, there will be no sexual relations outside marriage; hence, there will be no AIDS introduced into this couple. And hence, condoms are not needed. So in principle, abstinence is the only defense against AIDS. And the plea for abstinence should not be reduced to this problem of AIDS. It's a much broader, ethical notion.

Of course, the reality and the tragedy is that not enough African people are good Catholics yet; they are lured into modernity which advocates consumer-sex (the real cause of the spread of AIDS); and they are confronted with all kinds of misery, which lead to sex seen as a kind of shallow pleasure, and adultery as a means to forget your misery for a while.

So in order to combat AIDS, you don't need condoms (these only fight the symptoms), you need a broad contextual program:
-social progress and a fight against poverty (the Catholic Church does its utmost here)
-education (the Church does its utmost here)
-loyalty and a pious catholic lifestyle, which involves love and spirituality within marriage, and abidance to the rules of the Church

I challenge you to point me to one family that abides by these rules, and has AIDS. You won't find one. Not a single one.


khebab wrote:
Abstinence has never worked and will nerver worked.


Abstinence always works. Per definition. (The word abstinence means: to abstain.)

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'Y')ou basically ignored my comment

[Ebyss]

Lol


(I'm not Catholic... Imagine I had said "Be a good Jew and show some patience"... lucky for you I have a sense of humour )



(Why is the wink emot not a wink?.. I just have some dude with a sheepish smile)

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', '
')First of all, AIDS is not exclusively a sexually transmitted disease. It can be contracted in other ways (infected needles for example).

[Geology_Guy]

I agree the two situations are not the same, but they do share similarities. History rolls on, but we can learn from the past.

The reason I bring up the fall of the Roman Empire is because it was the last time that European society almost totally collapsed. As western "European" civilization now dominates the world (at least in it's American form) it is relevant to look at past collapses and see what relevance they have to a possible future collapse due to peak oil.

I suggest a good read of Jared Diamond's books on the rise and collapse of complex societies. As the Catholic Church was the most successful organization (the Eastern Empire and the Orthodox Church also did pretty well) to survive the fall a look at how it accomplished this might be beneficial.

You do not have to be Catholic or even like the Catholic Church to admit that certain groups of Catholics like the Irish monks did pretty well for themselves in the Dark Ages. This is of course a rather "Eurocentric" look at things. I figure the Emperor in China or the Mayans were doing pretty well thank you and did not care a bit what problems the Romans got themselves into.

As for the problems of the Romans not being relevant. They are partially relevant to peak oil. The Romans were running out of good farmland and forests -look what they did to North Africa.