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THE Holidays Thread pt 2 (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 02:21:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'H')owever, it still doesn't seem REAL enough to any of us, myself included, to be in the mode of trying to conserve the food or the resources. There is so much Plenty that you only eat the best of the best, and more of it than you can fit in your stomach at one sitting unless you go the Bulimic route and Purge so you can fit desert. LOL.
Will it be next year that we carefully save all the bones of the Wild Turkeys and boil them up for soup stock? Or will it take 2 or 3 more years to devolve down that far? Or even longer? Anyone willing to make a prediction on this?

We never stopped boiling the bones into soup stock or treating food as a gift.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 03:51:34

ReverseEngineer Wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ill it be next year that we carefully save all the bones of the Wild Turkeys and boil them up for soup stock? Or will it take 2 or 3 more years to devolve down that far? Or even longer? Anyone willing to make a prediction on this?


Nice story, Reverse. It's good to see that despite all the doom and gloom, you have your head on straight enough to enjoy the moment -- good brie, good friends, good wine.

You mentioned that there hasn't been a change in the availability of food. That's not quite true. The change has been gradual, so you may not have noticed. Prices are going up, and packages are getting smaller. Quality standards are lowering, and contamination outbreaks are more common. I foresee more of this sort of thing, until undeniably emptier store shelves arrive.

After preps are made, I think we just all need to do more of what you did today. We need to enjoy what we have, live in the moment, be thankful for what is here today.

After all, wouldn't it be silly to obsess over Doom for the next ten years, only to die of cancer? ;)
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Rogozhin » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 05:05:29

All wealth is the product of labor and your bread was lacking.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 05:55:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'Y')ou mentioned that there hasn't been a change in the availability of food. That's not quite true. The change has been gradual, so you may not have noticed. Prices are going up, and packages are getting smaller. Quality standards are lowering, and contamination outbreaks are more common. I foresee more of this sort of thing, until undeniably emptier store shelves arrive.

I have noted myself the increasing number of stories regarding tainted food, and I also have noted some increasing prices, but by no means are prices increasing very fast at all, at least here where the prices have always been high.

I only have lived up here for around 2 years, so I can't go back further than that with personal experience. However, I am a Coca Cola addict, drink tons of the stuff which explains how I write so much. LOL. Anyhow, when I got here, I paid $4 for a 12 pack of Coke on Sale, I still pay $4 for it. I buy a fresh Baked Bagel every day that I have cream cheese and smoked salmon on, in the NY tradition. The salmon of course I fish and smoke myself, so I don't pay for that, but the Krafft Philadelphia Brand Cream Cheese I bought for $2.50 for the 8oz tub (with the chives, premium, I can buy bar cream cheese cheaper but don't usually) I still buy for that price usually, though more often $3 now. Not exactly killer inflation. The Bagels cost me 69 cents when I got here, 79 cents now.

There is NO significant difference to me on a price level or availability level of anything I buy in the supermarket, with the exception of Detergent, which doubled in price since I got here.

Believe you me, I watch this like a HAWK. I look for any sign of a shelf less full, any time a product is out of stock I get antsy, but it shows back up a few days later so far. I shop just about every day because I am watching this so closely.

When the shelves are undeniably emptier, I will know it. Just so far, its not apparent at all, at least here. I bought 3 nice Rack of Lambs from Australia yesterday at a nice price for that of $12/lb. Vacuum sealed, into the freezer it went with all the rest of the meat, bought, fished and hunted.

I am of course dead certain this will not be the case in the future, just I really am curious how long its going to take for this to become apparent up here? On the one hand, being so far out you might think we were a Canary in the Coal mine, its way more expensive to get food up here than about anywhere else. On the other hand, just because it does take so long, we might lag behind everybody else because its stored up in greater volume relative to the population.

In any event, its still well wihin my budget to eat like a King every day, and believe you me I do :-) I LOVE a Fresh Baked Bagel with Smoked Salmon, reminds me of the Jewish Delis in NY I went to for lunch around Stuyvesant HS. I LOVE a Tomato Salad with Feta Cheese and Kalamatta Olives, reminds me of the time I leased a Yacht with some friends in the Greek Islands in my early twenties. I get nice Hothouse tomatoes grown right here in Alaska and Feta cheese imported from Greece at a price I can easily afford. Yum.

I'll miss it when it is gone, of course. But just HOW LONG before it disappears and I have to subsist on Mooseburgers? Which BTW are pretty good, just its a boring diet ;-)

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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 06:31:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]ReverseEngineer wrote:I am a Coca Cola addict

If you're interested, I can track down a recipe for making your own cola from home (wouldn't be the real thing, but a backup option).

I haven't tried the homemade sodas yet, but they seem rather easy to do. Creme soda especially -- just water, yeast, an empty two liter, and vanilla extract.

Bagels are pretty easy to make from scratch. I have a recipe for those if you want.. the different step with bagels is boiling them briefly. So anyway you can make a batch to alst two weeks, put in freezer.

As for worrying about when the supply lines will get disrupted, best advice is to keep eating like a king but LEARN to make some of these things yourself. Maybe you can't get bagels reliably one day, but flour is so basic that should stay in supply for a long time (and you can stockpile grains of course).
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 06:49:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]ReverseEngineer wrote:
I am a Coca Cola addict
If you're interested, I can track down a recipe for making your own cola from home (wouldn't be the real thing, but a backup option). I haven't tried the homemade sodas yet, but they seem rather easy to do. Creme soda especially -- just water, yeast, an empty two liter, and vanilla extract.
Bagels are pretty easy to make from scratch. I have a recipe for those if you want.. the different step with bagels is boiling them briefly. So anyway you can make a batch to alst two weeks, put in freezer. As for worrying about when the supply lines will get disrupted, best advice is to keep eating like a king but LEARN to make some of these things yourself. Maybe you can't get bagels reliably one day, but flour is so basic that should stay in supply for a long time (and you can stockpile grains of course).

My friend Suzie Homemaker bakes great bread, I will rely on her for the Bagels. I have plenty of flour vacuum sealed, but once it runs out where we will get fresh supplies remains an open question. Lousy environment for growing grains up here. Potatoes do OK though, so maybe Potato Bagels? The Cream Cheese is an issue, the only operational dairy farm here in Alaska closed about a year ago. However, we might be able to make do with cream cheese made from Moose Milk? LOL. There are some people with cows and goats up here still though, so cream cheese might still be possible. If not, I think I could whip up something from fish oil that would do OK. The Salmon of course is not a problem, that is my bailiwick.

Of course I love the variety and the ease with which it all comes right now. I'll miss that, but long as I have Salmon to Fish, Mooseburgers to eat and the children to teach and our community does not devolve downward to Zombieland, I will be quite happy. I keep my fingers crossed that we will make it thru somehow, where we all use our talents and abilities cooperatively to help each other. Only time will tell on that one.

If we can make it, I most certainly will NOT miss the money and the greed that devolves from the pursuit of power. It is the root of all Evil, and I would welcome the opportunity to give up the Brie and the Bruschetta if we give up the money also. That is a bargain I would strike in a minute.

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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 07:00:54

Regarding a diet of Moose:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')emale moose have an eight month gestation period. Most litters consist of a single calf; however, twins are not uncommon and triplets are known to occur. The young will stay with the mother until the next young are born.

Link
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you live in a community where moose outnumber people? For the winter residents of Gustavus the answer is a resounding "Yes!"
In fact, there are about twice as many moose living on the Gustavus forelands this winter as there are human inhabitants. This hasn't always been the case, however, as moose have been known to occur in this area only for the last 40 years or so.

Gustavus, a small community about 40 miles west of Juneau, borders Glacier Bay National Park. In 1958, long-time Gustavus resident Bill White documented the first known incidence of moose in the area. But it wasn't until 1986 that moose were considered common. During the winter of 1998, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game conducted the first aerial survey of the area and estimated the moose population to number about 180 animals. This was considered to be a relatively high density at the time.

However, subsequent annual winter surveys documented a very rapid increase in the moose population, and a survey this December indicated that the population numbers at least 390 animals. This estimated density of 3.8 moose per square kilometer is among the highest recorded in Alaska.

Link
So you got what... 2 years, if we are generous, of Moose (if you happen to live in this moose dense space), then you have to make other arrangements?
Image
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n 1950, the population of Alaska was 130,000

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But maybe a bunch of them will leave before you have to munch only on moose?
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 07:44:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'R')egarding a diet of Moose:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')emale moose have an eight month gestation period. Most litters consist of a single calf; however, twins are not uncommon and triplets are known to occur. The young will stay with the mother until the next young are born.

Link
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you live in a community where moose outnumber people? For the winter residents of Gustavus the answer is a resounding "Yes!" In fact, there are about twice as many moose living on the Gustavus forelands this winter as there are human inhabitants. This hasn't always been the case, however, as moose have been known to occur in this area only for the last 40 years or so.
Gustavus, a small community about 40 miles west of Juneau, borders Glacier Bay National Park. In 1958, long-time Gustavus resident Bill White documented the first known incidence of moose in the area. But it wasn't until 1986 that moose were considered common. During the winter of 1998, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game conducted the first aerial survey of the area and estimated the moose population to number about 180 animals. This was considered to be a relatively high density at the time.
However, subsequent annual winter surveys documented a very rapid increase in the moose population, and a survey this December indicated that the population numbers at least 390 animals. This estimated density of 3.8 moose per square kilometer is among the highest recorded in Alaska.

Link
So you got what... 2 years, if we are generous, of Moose (if you happen to live in this moose dense space), then you have to make other arrangements?
Image

It would depend on exactly how many Moose you need to kill in any given year to feed the population of people in the area those Moose inhabit. One decent size moose weighs 800-1200 lbs, out of which you can usually get around 500 lbs of usable meat. More good stuff if you boil all the bones and render it all down. A family of four should not have to kill more than 1 of them a year (adding in the other foodstuffs available), so as long as you have more Moose than people, you should be OK.

If you were JUST living on Moose, you might have a real problem, but of course you also have to take into account the population of Caribou and Deer and Bear. You also have to take into account the population of Salmon and Halibut. You also have to take into account the population of King Crab and Snow Crab and Dungeness Crab. You also have to take into account the Red Potatoes and Rhubarb which grow pretty well on the farms up here. Then you have to remember that while its not near so productive per acre as an Iowa farm is plowed by a tractor and fertilized with nitrates derived from oil, there just are not a whole lot of people living up here. You have a state that can fit 2 or 3 TX inside it with less people than live in San Antonio. Alaska is darn big, and besides that it pulls population of wildlife out of the Yukon. You depopulate Moose in your area, the overflow from the Yukon moves in to exploit the environment.

I am not claiming by any means that I am certain we have a sustainable food supply. A severe crash in the marine environment that provides the Copper River with Salmon each year would be a severe loss of course. this is clearly possible in the next few years, but right now the runs were good last summer, so I don't see instantaneous crash, and the Moose population is CLEARLY increasing.

If we do indeed have to make it just on what is available up here, I suspect not everyone will make it through, and old as I am I am probably one of the first to go. However, as a population, if we steward the environment well and nobody drops the BOMB on us, its also clear that there is enough food produced in this environment to feed quite a number of people. If it ends up as just 10,000 Human Souls, that is fine by me. I don't have to be one of them either. I would just hope to help the community learn to live in balnce with what Mother Nature provides up here, which really is quite bounteous if you don't overpopulate it.

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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 08:30:53

:) You enjoyed a more expansive menu than I did but I'm just as stuffed as you are. I cooked the turkey one daughter got from her old job in the wood range while the girls put the spuds and squash from the garden on top. Other veggies, stuffing, cranberry sauce, rolls, and three kinds of pie. All washed down with spring water and beer, I don't know how we forgot the wine?
Except for cranberries I could raise it all here and will if needed. Even the moose burger backup is available for now.
If half of Boston shows up wanting a place at the table I'm in trouble though.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Leanan » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 09:47:30

I don't think we'll be back to boiling wild turkey bones next year. The collapse will be slower than that. Though there may be a lot more people roasting a chicken instead of a turkey.

But if it does come down to shooting a wild turkey, I'll just go to my parents' house...

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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby MarkJ » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 11:14:36

We've always had venison or wild turkey for Thanksgiving dinner as well as domestic turkey, chicken, ham and roast beef. I actually don't care too much for the traditional turkey, stuffing and gravy.

We waste a lot since so many people in our large family don't like turkey, dark meat, stuffing, squash, yams, deserts or leftovers. We end up throwing a lot of leftovers in the garbage or feeding them to pets since we'll never eat them before they spoil.

Deer Hunting Thanksgiving day is a long running tradition of many Northern families.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 12:16:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'W')e never stopped boiling the bones into soup stock or treating food as a gift.

Yeah, who doesn't make soup out of the bones? Mind you, we do it a month earlier up here. :)
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 12:54:06

I was just thinking about wastage last night, while I was putting everything away from our little feast. This is the first year that I can be pretty confident we'll use most of this bird. I got the carcass simmering, and a nice amount in the freezer. We're having turkey shepherd pie for dinner tonight.

But I can just imagine what the rest of the world thinks, seeing obese Americans gorging themselves then throwing a quarter of their meals away while people starve.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 14:50:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', 'W')e dont celebrate thanksgiving here in UK

You have to have something to be thankful FOR. :lol:
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Lanthanide » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 17:09:49

How long until you have to dig up graves and eat decaying corpses, like the original pilgrims did?
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Lanthanide » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 20:17:49

It seems I conflated the early history of the USA that I was reading about with Thanksgiving directly, but the kernel of truth is still there.

From this wikipedia article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n early 2007 at least three respected authorities concluded, based on some credible evidence, that the starvation conditions were so severe that corpses were dug up, and human flesh was eaten.
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 20:39:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lanthanide', 'I')t seems I conflated the early history of the USA that I was reading about with Thanksgiving directly, but the kernel of truth is still there.

From this wikipedia article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n early 2007 at least three respected authorities concluded, based on some credible evidence, that the starvation conditions were so severe that corpses were dug up, and human flesh was eaten.


An inaccurate and oddly ghoulish conflation of the pilgrims and the thanksgiving holiday with unrelated cannibalism inferred to have occurred due to famine at Jamestown is not a " kernal of truth". :roll:
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Re: An American Thanksgiving Dinner

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 20:49:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lanthanide', 'I')t seems I conflated the early history of the USA that I was reading about with Thanksgiving directly, but the kernel of truth is still there.

From this wikipedia article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n early 2007 at least three respected authorities concluded, based on some credible evidence, that the starvation conditions were so severe that corpses were dug up, and human flesh was eaten.


I suppose it would depend on just who was being roasted as to whether I would enjoy the feast or not. There are any number of people out there who should Boil in Canola Oil. If somebody is to make a meal of me, as long as its the right folks at the dinner table, it would be the last great gift I could make.

See you on the Other Side

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Cutting trees as adornment ("christmas trees")

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 01 Dec 2008, 22:52:13

Cutting trees as adornment ("christmas trees") is a complete insanity. The soil and resources used for these should be used for food production instead.

This can be generalized for adornments in general (ie: jewelry).
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