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THE Communism Thread (merged)

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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby JPL » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:30:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xerces', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'R')ead the Communist Manifesto through once. Then you'll know what to criticize. Obama is not a communist.
I read it years ago. The classic pattern of capitalism => socialism => communism. If anything Obama seems to be pushing for the 1st transition.

Nothing personal, but you sound very antagonistic. Socialism is not something the rest of the world has a problem with. Most of Europe, China, India, etc are already Socialist. Even the USA's beloved partner in crime (Britian) has a Socialist government.

The next stage after Socialism is Communism, and that will happen in the most natural and obvious fashion. The existing financial structures will dissolve (some will say that is already happening - grin) and then people will have a chance to run their own affairs for once. This is a good thing.

Personally, I can't see what the problem is (young or old...)

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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Revi » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:36:26

What's the difference between capitalism and communism? I guess capitalism is more honest, but with communism you don't have to worry about accumulating all that stuff only to have it taken away and redistributed when you get sick.

In capitalism you play a game for your working life. You worry about keeping a roof over your head and dream of getting rich enough to quit worrying about your retirement. The stock market tanks and your retirement disappears, so you have to worry about survival, never mind retirement.

In communism you work for a state for your working life. You assume that your retirement is taken care of. Before you get there it goes belly up and you have to worry about survival, never mind retirement.

So what's the difference? Enlighten me.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby venky » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:44:42

If you are 20 and not a socialist you dont have a heart

If you are 40 and not a conservative you dont have a brain.

Cant remember who said that, Churchill maybe.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:50:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'W')hat's the difference between capitalism and communism? I guess capitalism is more honest, but with communism you don't have to worry about accumulating all that stuff only to have it taken away and redistributed when you get sick.

In capitalism you play a game for your working life. You worry about keeping a roof over your head and dream of getting rich enough to quit worrying about your retirement. The stock market tanks and your retirement disappears, so you have to worry about survival, never mind retirement.

In communism you work for a state for your working life. You assume that your retirement is taken care of. Before you get there it goes belly up and you have to worry about survival, never mind retirement.

So what's the difference? Enlighten me.



Let me try. :)


In socialism (communism) it's man vs man.

In capitalism it's the other way around.


I hope that helped! :)
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Revi » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:54:32

Thanks, Eastbay.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 22:55:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'T')hanks, Eastbay.



Any time. :)
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby kjmclark » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 23:09:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'N')othing personal, but you sound very antagonistic. Socialism is not something the rest of the world has a problem with. Most of Europe, China, India, etc are already Socialist. Even the USA's beloved partner in crime (Britian) has a Socialist government.


And what about that US road network? Ever followed how roads get built and maintained in this country? 25 and five year plans. We tax people so that central planners can decide what roads we "need" and build them, whether or not they are "needed." Capitalist roads are know as toll roads, and most of the country thinks they're abhorrent.

Why are young people more interested in socialism? Because they don't have much and look around them and see lots of *really* rich older folks. The younger people know what hard work is, see how little they make doing it, and realize that it's *impossible* to make that much money doing an honest day's work. Then they look around them and see lots of poverty and sickness for no really good reason. They think about it and realize the wealthy older people aren't willing to lift a finger to help other people, and the wealthy have rigged the system to keep themselves wealthy.

What younger people need to see is government doing its job and taxing the wealthy their fair share to take care of the common good. Capitalism works great - for everyone - if the system isn't rigged so much in favor of the wealthy. Maybe we now have another chance, like the 30s, to put things back on course.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby kjmclark » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 23:16:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'I')f you are 20 and not a socialist you dont have a heart

If you are 40 and not a conservative you dont have a brain.

Cant remember who said that, Churchill maybe.


Yeah, except the Churchill Centre says he never said that:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Conservative by the time you're 35"
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 23:28:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xerces', 'W')hy is communism so appealing to young people?


I'm only going to address this basic question and not go into the larger issue of how people best operate collectively vs individually (because human beings operate both ways to advantage. Why shouldn't they?).

Young people are much more supportive of one another than older people are. It's much easier to make friends when you're young because that's when you are most attractive and sociable - by nature! That when it's easiest to socialize in large groups and never get tired of it. Usually, young people make strenuous efforts to conform to the mode of a peer group. That's why they go to such great lengths to look right and say the right sorts of things. It's all about finding out about who you are and what opportunities may abound when you hook up with others.

As people get older, they have grown. Some have defined themselves much better than others, have developed useful skills and distinctions, have been successful in various pursuits, etc. Others haven't. Many times it is a competitive drive that goads a successful person on to great achievement. It's a trait that not everyone shares. In fact, lots of people have no particular talent or ambition at all. Talent is talent because it's rare!

And it is successful, established people who are most genuinely interested in keeping their hard won wealth for themselves. It's only natural. Why should they share it?

Also, as people get older they are much more likely to become more cynical about the motives of strangers and the crowd in general. They will become more jaded, and distrustful, more impatient and much less tolerant of others -- especially those who do not put the same degree of time, care and effort into their lives.
They've been hustled, bitch-slapped, screwed over in divorces, raped in business, taxed and have stepped in the public one too many times to have any patience left with it.

Not only have young people NOT yet been dipped in all that dharma, young people haven't had the time to develop personal distinctions from the crowd, so they haven't got as much to protect - only opportunities to explore. Cynicism, as a personality trait, would not be considered sexy or attractive by other youth. And, generally, the longer you're alive and dealing with other people, the more you tend to realize that 85% of the population is just another motherfu*cker.

Young people don't yet know that it is only 10 - 15% of human beings who possess any talent whatsoever or who actually achieve that unique sort of personal beauty of character that keeps them interesting and worthwhile beyond the usual expiration date.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 15 Nov 2008, 23:31:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xerces', ' ')a generation of young people sacrificed their youth and energy for the corrupt goals of handful of political power-brokers. In the end those people woke up in their 30s with no money, no skills, and was totally abandoned by their own government. And that was why he stopped believing that communism could work.

I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion on this matter?


Change political power brokers to corporate power brokers and communism to capitalism, and it works just as well.

If there are few atheists in the trenches, there are even fewer capitalists standing in bread lines.

Capitalism and communism illustrate the limits of political philosophy to temper human nature. There has to be an evolution of the human spirit and that comes through collective suffering, through both systems.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 00:01:49

To speak to the original question, young people are idealist. They also are not taught very much actual history anymore. They are taught relativism and the brainwashing starts at a young age. They are also not taught to think and speak for themselves. The majority of the teachers at all levels are leftwing and socialist leaning especially in the Universities. After they have had to take care of themselves for a while they start to clue in, that every country that adopted full blown Socialism as in National Socialist Party of Germany. Or Communism as in Russia or China usually ended up murdering an awful lot of their own citizens. In the hundreds of millions. As bad as Capitalism is it never reached the levels of butchery of either Socialism or Communism.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Minvaren » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 00:16:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')o speak to the original question, young people are idealist. They also are not taught very much actual history anymore. They are taught relativism and the brainwashing starts at a young age. They are also not taught to think and speak for themselves. The majority of the teachers at all levels are leftwing and socialist leaning especially in the Universities.


People trend progressively more conservative until they graduate high school, and then they trend more progressively liberal. In high school, the vast majority of my teachers were conservative. In my time attending universities, I have met professors who are both liberal and conservative, but it's true that the tenured ones trend liberal. Why? They are about the free exchange of knowledge, which is why they got into that position in the first place.

Not that most PhD's teach many classes - they're normally publishing or researching.

As many posters have echoed, communism is appealing to the youth because it is a wonderful ideal, until you realize that (current) human nature will not allow it to occur.

There's that great line from the Matrix : "Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered? Where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from."

I don't know that we're able to accept that level of equanimity yet, as a whole. Which makes me sad in inexpressable ways.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby AlexdeLarge » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 00:28:20

"Communism has nothing to do with love. Communism is an excellent hammer which we use to destroy our enemy."

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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 00:47:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')o speak to the original question, young people are idealist. They also are not taught very much actual history anymore. They are taught relativism and the brainwashing starts at a young age. They are also not taught to think and speak for themselves. The majority of the teachers at all levels are leftwing and socialist leaning especially in the Universities. After they have had to take care of themselves for a while they start to clue in, that every country that adopted full blown Socialism as in National Socialist Party of Germany. Or Communism as in Russia or China usually ended up murdering an awful lot of their own citizens. In the hundreds of millions. As bad as Capitalism is it never reached the levels of butchery of either Socialism or Communism.


I'm reading EJ Hobsbawm's "Marxist Trilogy" right now - just got through the first volume. It's a view of history starting from the the Industrial Revolution (Britain) and the French Revolution that concentrates on how these "dual revolutions" created and differentiated the professional classes and working classes. It's about how these classes developed and evolved.

I'm not a Marxist, but I wanted to better understand the context in which Marx developed his thesis of "historical evolution".

It was pretty horrible what happened to the working classes in England as Capitalism first developed there. Charles Dickens' whole career, for example, was based upon the plight of the laboring poor and the miserable conditions they had to endure.

And the tendencies shown originally in England in the early 19th century have continued right on through to the modern era. For example, the tendency of the profit margin on a manufactured good to decrease over time and for the manufacturer to resort to all manner of cost-saving devices - especially resorting to low wages. We have seen a part of this evolution result in the significant loss of America's once-proud manufacturing base to China - where cheap labor is nearly boundless and there are fewer restrictions on exploiting labor.

I'm just starting the second volume "The Age Of Capital" in which Marx' philosophy will be discussed at length.

I have always wondered what effect the advent of greater and greater degrees of advanced automation will have on the different classes of people. Assume, for a moment, that machine intelligence will become something of a major force to one degree or another in the next couple of decades. How will a planet-load of people cope with a condition of being largely obsolete? What will happen to the owners of Capital? What will happen to Labor?

The world could experience another sort of revolution in the not-too-distant future as machines begin outshining people even in intellectual domains. It certainly is a definable trend that one can reasonably extrapolate.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby cube » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 02:34:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '.')..It's much easier to make friends when you're young because that's when you are most attractive and sociable - by nature!
...
yeah I agree with the attractive part.
I'm 15 lbs heavier right now compared to 10 years ago. *looks down at gut*
However if you think that's bad you should look at some of the women out there.
Ten years can do a lot to a women's body. *dodges flying rocks*
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I think one of the biggest life changes a person goes through is when they become financially independent. It totally changes a person.

IMHO the overwhelming majority of the Liberals out there fall into the, "Lets tax the rich and give to the poor" variety.
Liberals do not want to pay out of their own pocket for their pet projects ---> they want other people to pay for it.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby MOCKBA » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 04:21:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xerces', 'O')n election night, I was hanging out with a group of friends. And we were basically discussing some of the wealth re-distribution plans that Obama was proposing. I strongly disapprove of such methods and very quickly found out that nearly all of my friends were for it. In short, almost all of a group of educated mid-20s people were supporting a government that would give them money that they didn't earn.


After 20+ years of unprecedented prosperity it ain't just youth that never knew different.... those who are old enough to remember 80ies somehow don't want to work for it either...

In the wake of elections I very much liked what Arnold said about all this... when confronted about his support for Obama while being a vocal opponent of socialism... Make no mistake US of A would never go socialist because no matter what is the current rhetorics, socialism is not in the blood of US of A. That is why next 4 years would be 4 years of failed (and later rejected) policies... even worse then what was under Bush Jr. (miracle aside)...

Didn't anybody else notice that never before transition of Presidency took such spotlight? Like in president elect begging current president to do something on his behalf? How screwed things gotta be for such desperation to show up?
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 04:23:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xerces', 'I')'m interested in hearing everyone's opinion on this matter?


"Communism" is appealing to young people because they don't feel they "belong".

The counter question for you would be: Why do old farts belief in unfettered capitalism?

Point is: The idea that people at the top "earned" it is a fallacy, they do profit from the work of others. Sometimes that is deserved, most times it is not.

As such "redistribution" isn't really a bad thing in and on itself.

The very simple question, if you oppose the ideas that Obama has right now, is this: Do you want to give up some of your riches voluntarily (through Taxes) or do you want to one day find your head on a pike? If the gap between the masses who have little or nothing and those who do have all grows too big, the first will take out the other group.

Read a history book, it has happened several times before, and it will happen again.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby MOCKBA » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 05:07:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', 'R')ead a history book, it has happened several times before, and it will happen again.

Never happened in America though... just a food for thought, why exactly it happened that way - rather then establishing lasting communes (like in Christiania for example) americans choose to throw tea parties in Boston and events as such...

Make no mistake... 48% of population still voted McCain with least popular outgoing president ever... Good luck pulling "United we stand" by simply throwing some money on cronies in situation like this.

My take - Clinton would refuse Sec of State seat and would rather take Senate leadership... would set a precidence of "who would want to be on a sinking ship"... this is quite important in my view... would set a tone for the next 4 years...
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 05:18:59

because they haven't yet been corrupted by the system...

because they're not yet hooked on 'money'...

because contrary to Demolay's points, they use their brain better than narrow minded old people....

because they go to college and meet students and their parents from rich familes who are nowhere near as bright as they are and question why?

because their mates who are working in a factory because their parents need them to earn are twice as clever as their middle/upper class college mates who will probably end up running the country....

I believe the original question needs the word 'educated' inserting between the words 'to' and 'young'. In my experience the young people at college / university can see that the world system is broke and the injustice of exporting death to the third world is unsustainable, so they look for answers and like Carhole start to read Marx ((btw) its very heavy reading, but you should really take a look at Das Kapital). Young people who hang round my local pubs/ village don't tend to find communism attractive.

The appeal is to thinking people of all ages not to youth!

Older people who've managed to get together a small stake in 'the system' tend to be scared of losing it. In times like this when all they've worked for disappears they will start to radicalise as well.
Last edited by Quinny on Sun 16 Nov 2008, 06:28:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is communism so appealing to young people?

Unread postby mkwin » Sun 16 Nov 2008, 05:24:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s many posters have echoed, communism is appealing to the youth because it is a wonderful ideal, until you realize that (current) human nature will not allow it to occur.


This is the exact answer to the opening question. I used to be a socialist until I bothered to educate myself in history and economics and got more life experience.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was pretty horrible what happened to the working classes in England as Capitalism first developed there. Charles Dickens' whole career, for example, was based upon the plight of the laboring poor and the miserable conditions they had to endure.


Different times call for different policies. We already have wealth distribution in most modern societies - it is called taxation. While I may have supported many of the objectives of Communism in the Victorian Era, especially class war against the landed gentry and monarchy, I would have always been in favour of democracy and never armed revolution.

Obama will simply raise taxes on the rich to the same levels in Europe; which personally I support. He is not talking about stripping the moderately rich or middle classes of their assets and distributing them to the working class as the communist of yester year were.
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