[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '.')..
really? how does that work?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '.')..
that's really pretty worthless in this context, if you ask me. show me an example of a single free market that didn't operate on the principle of growth.

[Quinny]

How could you say something so rude, nasty, trollish & challenging.

You deserve to be banned, never mind ignored.

Only joking - Welcome to the ignore list. Cube's bat'n'balls been taken home again!


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '.')..
really? how does that work?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'I')f growth in profits is not allowed then the demand for labour= 0. When I wrap my mind around this it means that if you're not self employed or a farmer your dead. Conversly when you get 20-40% mass unemployment you get social revolution- communism, extremisim, crime waves and other problems en mass.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'C')an we have a free market system, if growth ends?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he gov. does not want you to sit still and keep your consumption level constant. They want you to consume more.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'A')lthough I've actually argued with people who think resources are infinite (through infinite substitution)

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'A')lthough I've actually argued with people who think resources are infinite (through infinite substitution)

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '.')..
really? how does that work?

[DomusAlbion]

When I read such thoughts and think of the peak; oil, fish, resources, everything, the poem "The Second Coming" by the Irishman Yeats comes to mind. It was written in the 1920s and foreshadowed the turmoil to come to his world. The world is on the cusp of change and a new world will emerge but not until the monster is loosed and has wreaked its destruction.

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[galacticsurfer]

With calls from UN for a Green New Deal globally and such articles in leading magazines plus the conference in summer in Saudi Arabia and the coming UN onference on a new world financial orde I would think the time is ripe for a wholesale switch of ideologies towards sustainability in terms of ecological economics. This can help little, like putting the brakes on as you run over the cliff but it is something nevertheless.

[venky]

A free market system by itself might not lead inevitably to perpetual growth, however, I think that it will always have an inherent pressure to growth, as millions of individual players will always be trying to better themselves, expand their businesses. With no regulation, and ready access to resources it will result in a steady growth in the right circumstances.

Most would agree that too much government regulation is a bad thing and its very harmful for the economy. How about the government only regulates the usuage of scarce and non renewable resources?

But I hate the idea of some bureaucrat liscensing out energy or raw material permits to the industry; that is almost a guarantee of corruption and cronyism.

Another option is trusts that act for the local community. They would not fall under the federal government, but would be responsible to the local community that elects them to safeguard the environment and resources that fall in that area. Any businesses operating in this area would have to pay the necessary fees to operate in that area, corresponding to the resources they use of pollutants they emit. The draw back is that this might not work on the global scale, many communities might choose short term greed over long term care of the environment, and might not really change the status quo.

We could also leave it to the free market. But the consequences of that are pretty clear right now; I dont really need to go into it.

Will individuals themselves be sustainable minded? Not until our culture and value system dramitically changes.

I feel depressed after writing that.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '.')..
really? how does that work?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'A') free market system by itself might not lead inevitably to perpetual growth, however, I think that it will always have an inherent pressure to growth, as millions of individual players will always be trying to better themselves, expand their businesses. With no regulation, and ready access to resources it will result in a steady growth in the right circumstances.

Most would agree that too much government regulation is a bad thing and its very harmful for the economy. How about the government only regulates the usuage of scarce and non renewable resources?

But I hate the idea of some bureaucrat liscensing out energy or raw material permits to the industry; that is almost a guarantee of corruption and cronyism.

Another option is trusts that act for the local community. They would not fall under the federal government, but would be responsible to the local community that elects them to safeguard the environment and resources that fall in that area. Any businesses operating in this area would have to pay the necessary fees to operate in that area, corresponding to the resources they use of pollutants they emit. The draw back is that this might not work on the global scale, many communities might choose short term greed over long term care of the environment, and might not really change the status quo.

We could also leave it to the free market. But the consequences of that are pretty clear right now; I dont really need to go into it.

Will individuals themselves be sustainable minded? Not until our culture and value system dramitically changes.

I feel depressed after writing that.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')'m sure you'll find much to agree with there, yesplease.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'S')ure it has a timescale. The Earth as a habitable planet won't be around for more than a billion years give or take, so planning beyond that in terms of it isn't very useful and as such we do have a time scale.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('galacticsurfer', '
')So when the people finally "get it" the popular culture will transmit theidea fairly simply.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'P')roduction = turning inputs into outputs

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'I') posed this question before: Can we have a free market system, if growth ends?

[MrBill]

MrBean you do not understand economics, but I assume from your posts that you have an intimate knowledge of wanking. Stick to what you know best.