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Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion check?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby BigTex » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 13:54:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I')t's important to remember that hyperinflation is mostly a psychological phenomenon that employers have to buy into as well.


Hyperinflation is only as psychological as that "mental recession" that Phil Gramm accused us of having six months ago. Tex, you're basing your guess about our economic direction based on employer responses to political mandates. It is the political mandates from Congress that will drive things, and employers will only be able to react. As money gets pumped into the system, employers will have the choice of layoffs or increasing salaries. They will do both, but mostly the former.


We're saying the same thing.

Hyperinflation only works if you have rising wages, otherwise no one has any money to spend and you see demand destruction.

There can't be rising wages unless employers BELIEVE that there are increases in future profits that justify paying employees more today. That's what I mean by a "psychological phenomenon."

In a world where virtually all money is in the form of credit, creating inflation is not as simple as it sounds.

Japan has 0% interest rates and they have not been able to create inflation no matter how hard they tried.

Inflationary policies adopted in the face of massive credit contraction may only dampen deflationary pressures, while people pile into perceived safe havens like gold while the rest of the commodity sector collapses, as we are seeing right now.

It would be impossible for the U.S. government to create inflation if it wanted to right now (short of sending out $10,000 checks to every person in the country, and even that might now work), since it will be impossible to increase the level of U.S. debt at the same rate that U.S. dollars are being destroyed in the form of credit contraction.

Nothing like this has ever happened before. This credit bubble is more massive than people realize. At its root, however, is the same old idea we've been knocking around here forever--exponential growth assumptions are simply bumping into reality and reality is not budging.

If the U.S. dollar weren't a reserve currency and the petrodollar arrangement weren't in place, this "fiscal policy overshoot" could not have occurred.

We thought we were bungee jumping when we were really being dropped from the gallows with a REALLY long rope.
:)
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 14:12:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Duende', 't')hreadbear wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t hasn't happened yet. This is a future forecast. Think of it as the pendulum swinging very far in the other direction.


I figured you meant it as a future forecast. I did too - do you think in the future, if coffee is $15/cup that there would be fewer stores?

My suspicion is that, as the economy worsens, one of two things happens to each and every retail establishment:

1. raise prices to cover operating costs, or
2. shut down, because sales of goods at higher prices in that locale will not cover operating costs.

From this standpoint, I would imagine far fewer total Starbucks stores because in many parts of town, not enough people would buy coffee for $15/cup to cover the operating costs of staying in business.


Reread what I posted. Yes, far fewer coffee shops, devalued currency, firm to higher commodity prices, due to trashing of fiat currencies, internationally. There will be a tightened credit environment, which will translate into higher prices in retail sector, too. There may actually be less money circulating, but that won't necessarily make the currency that IS circulating, much more valuable. I don't see hyperinflation, just price inflation, stagnating wages. A contraction in money supply, on Main street, will not translate into price decreases in the price of day to day living. What will become cheaper is houses, cars, boats, etc...

Fiat currencies are losing value, because confidence in them is eroding through bailouts. In order for the pumping or printing action of the bailouts to transfer to the consumer, credit has to be readily and easily accessible. This isn't going to happen.

I see debt people.

UNLESS...govts simultaneously initiate make work infrastructure programs. Then you could see something like hyper inflation.
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 15:08:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A') contraction in money supply, on Main street, will not translate into price decreases in the price of day to day living. What will become cheaper is houses, cars, boats, etc...

Yup. The prices of things that were only "affordable" due to readily available credit will drop, while the price of necessities (relative to wages) will rise. Those who can't afford to pay market rates will simply be rationed out of the system unless gov steps in.

I expect to see increased unemployment, lower wages, and lower prices, although I think the price of necessities will fall less than wages, making them less affordable in real terms.
"Who knows what the Second Law of Thermodynamics will be like in a hundred years?" - Economist speaking during planning for World Population Conference in early 1970s
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 16:36:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') think we have several stages of demand destruction, though, since so many of us live like kings compared to most of history.

First, demand destruction for new clothes.

Then, eating out.

Then, any form of entertainment.

Then, non-essential travel.

Then, flavored drinks.

Then, alcohol, tobacco and other vices.



I agree with all except for the last line.

"--Daddy, I hear vodka is going to cost double, starting tomorrow. Does it mean you are going to drink less?
--No sonny. That means you are going to eat less. "
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby Falconoffury » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 17:32:48

Remember that hyperinflation is man-made. A situation like 1923 Germany or present day Zimbabwe could happen in the USA soon. If life gets bad enough, people will be yelling for the government to do something about it. That something could be a massive program of socialized jobs and money creation, in the face of stagnant real goods. In effect, people could be making high wages in numeric terms, but the cost of goods would have to go up. Governments and central banks are still a wild card. It could go many different ways.
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 17:46:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'R')emember that hyperinflation is man-made. A situation like 1923 Germany or present day Zimbabwe could happen in the USA soon. If life gets bad enough, people will be yelling for the government to do something about it. That something could be a massive program of socialized jobs and money creation, in the face of stagnant real goods. In effect, people could be making high wages in numeric terms, but the cost of goods would have to go up. Governments and central banks are still a wild card. It could go many different ways.


This could very likely play out. It's all about the cash delivery system. If the govts don't intervene with make work projects, it's going to collapse, bail out or not.
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby ki11ercane » Mon 29 Sep 2008, 19:18:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')he U.S. will borrow the money for any bailout plan, just like it has borrowed the money for every other misguided government action of the last 60 years.

This plan is not inflationary. Inflation requires rising wages. Without rising wages, inflation simply creates demand destruction, which stifles economic activity, which leads to deflation, not inflation.

In a credit crisis, inflation is never going to be the problem.

Japan has been trying to create inflation for 15 years. Every time they inject money, the banks sit on it. Inflation requires that money be available in the form of credit, which is the whole problem right now--credit is drying up, which is very deflationary.

It's like a game of musical chairs, except there are 300,000,000 people and only a few chairs. The chairs will go to the people who do not depend on credit to function or survive.


Yay I get a chair!
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Re: Where will they get the money to fund a $700 billion che

Unread postby Falconoffury » Tue 30 Sep 2008, 02:27:27

If the government does create a massive system of socialized jobs, I would go so far as to call it communism. A communist country is no different. The government creates the jobs, assigns them to the citizenry, and assigns the wages. The free market has nothing to do with the entire process. Do we forget history so easily?
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