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SEC bans short-selling in US

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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 12:12:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'M')aybe I should have just sent a check directly to some fat cat's pocket. Because that's exactly what just happened.


Hmmm...yeah. I think we're at about $6 trillion on the bail outs. Divide by 300,000,000 Americans. Yeah. If you make the check out for $20,000, that should about cover your share.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 12:41:00

Just another reason why i opened an account for trading stocks, but NEVER funded it! The market can't be trusted. Glad my mom got out back in 2000...

A person is better off spending money on dirty magazines, booze, and flashy clothing...
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby MOCKBA » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 13:08:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'B')y the way, the SKF is currently frozen (read: worthless).


It is far from being worthless. There was a halt on trading and it was bid as low as $67 (or 50% off from yesterday) but resumed trading around $90... Now you could establish positions effectively risking 1/4 to make 3/4 playing that at the very least after initial advances financials would get back down to at least summer levels sometimes next year... I wanted to write options on shorter durations (Oct expiration that would happen after ban on shorting would expire), but it seems the market is pricing a sell off in financials... Oh well SDS looks more interesting as far as "the bottom would fall off in the absence of short sellers" goes...
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby Chuckmak » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 14:20:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'B')y the way, the SKF is currently frozen (read: worthless).

Along with every other short fund.

I have just been robbed of thousands of dollars by the US Treasury Department. :x


Cry me a river. Why don't you channel your energies into helping your country, instead of trying to profit in its hour of need?


What kind of fake patriotic bullsh*t is this, JD?

I don't know who is worse...OilFinder2, You, or Lorenzo
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 19:56:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'B')y the way, the SKF is currently frozen (read: worthless).

Along with every other short fund.

I have just been robbed of thousands of dollars by the US Treasury Department. :x


Cry me a river. Why don't you channel your energies into helping your country, instead of trying to profit in its hour of need?


Maybe I should have just sent a check directly to some fat cat's pocket.


Or maybe you should have earned the money for your dream home by a quaint practice that people in the old days used to engage in called "work".

Gotta love the 21st century. Now, even the speculators and market sharks are shouting populist slogans. :roll:

Gotta fight for your "Right to Gamble".
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby sjn » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 20:41:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'B')y the way, the SKF is currently frozen (read: worthless).

Along with every other short fund.

I have just been robbed of thousands of dollars by the US Treasury Department. :x


Cry me a river. Why don't you channel your energies into helping your country, instead of trying to profit in its hour of need?


Maybe I should have just sent a check directly to some fat cat's pocket.


Or maybe you should have earned the money for your dream home by a quaint practice that people in the old days used to engage in called "work".

Gotta love the 21st century. Now, even the speculators and market sharks are shouting populist slogans. :roll:

Gotta fight for your "Right to Gamble".
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JD, you confuse me somewhat. Surely you aren't against the idea of an economic system based on common values and shared assumptions, you know the things that make a civilisation work? The markets are there to serve a useful purpose; that is price discovery. This insures sellers and buyers can receive fair value for their exchange without having to haggle the detail of every transaction. It's the most efficient mechanism for that purpose we've come up with. While there are far too many, whom have over the years tried to shoehorn "market economics" into areas it has no business, this does not get away from the utility markets bring.

This doesn't mean that the market is always right, indeed, markets can be very wrong when shared expectations are at odds with reality. In some cases this may mean intervention is necessary, or it may mean that market economics were perhaps not the ideal way to allocate resources in a given area (efficiency isn't always the primary criteon in all cases - this is a point some people would do well to consider). Over time markets work things out as long as the mechanisms to do so are unfettered, traders who see reality most clearly stand to gain as their reward, this isn't gambling.

What we have today in the equity markets isn't unfettered, and doesn't reward those with the clarity to see the truth. This is gambling (except for those with the inside knowedge), and it is this you are defacto supporting with your distain for those on this board who attempt to engage with the markets. Almost every member of this site is here to seek the truth; and attempt to understand and share what is happening; and going to happen in the world, if some have the foresight to and confidence to put their money where their mouths are who are you to disparage them? It doesn't mean they are ruthless Capitalists, who care nothing for anything else, though there are some of those here!

I would never consider myself a Capitalist, I think it makes for a lousy ideology, and has no place when it comes to deciding moral or ethical values, but markets are an important and useful tool within our economic system when they are allowed to perform their function, for better or worse.
Last edited by sjn on Sat 20 Sep 2008, 00:17:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby tex123 » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 20:48:32

"Likewise. But I have to admit: I am seriously thinking about withdrawing all of my money out of the bank and cashing out my money market account today. I am -> <- this close to doing it, because I keep seeing signs that this is about to spread from the investment bank community to the commercial bank community.

Anyone have any thoughts either way?"

I am right on the edge myself these days. Called my financial advisor the other day who temporarily calmed my fears but after this rally I strangely feel like the government just took a step in the wrong direction. These drastic measures do not make me feel any better and that was their intention right? Apparently it made wallstreet all giddy but I spoke with my husband today about buying precious metals. I know almost nothing about the markets but my intuition tells me something just went terribly wrong and the time to act is short.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 20:58:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'O')r maybe you should have earned the money for your dream home by a quaint practice that people in the old days used to engage in called "work".

So making cautious calculated trades in the stock market with your own money based on the value of the companies using trading techniques that have been the bread and butter of the market for centuries, that's bad. Making wildly irrational gambles with a whole bunch of other people's money on convoluted real estate derivatives you just dreamed up...that is good and patriotic and when you go bust you should get to retire in Bermuda and the American public should happily provide trillions of dollars to bail you out?

That's a very "unique" outlook JD.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby Captain_Meh » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 21:28:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tex123', 'b')ut after this rally I strangely feel like the government just took a step in the wrong direction. These drastic measures do not make me feel any better and that was their intention right?


I was swamped at work today, so I couldn't review all of today's developments until now. Anyway, I just sat down and laid out my rationale to my wife, pretty much converging on the same logic as many folks on this thread:
-the market is about price discovery
-these banks were tanking for a reason
-while its convenient and fashionable to vilify short sellers, they keep a floor on the bottom
-short sellers had to cash out and put their money somewhere, and they knew that a bunch of other people had to do the same
-equities were pretty much pegged to go long in the short-term
-naturally, it makes sense to buy when you know everyone else will (i.e. the bubble mentality)
-all bubbles pop, and this one will too when this rush no longer has legs
-there will be a renewed rush to sell
-the decline will be even worse because there are no short sellers to dampen the decline this time
-financially, TSHTF

So, we've just moved our money market funds to our bank and are ready to withdraw everything on Monday morning.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby jbrovont » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 21:53:18

* except it's going to be "from each according to his ability." From those who have more, more will be taken. From those who have little, less will be taken.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'M')aybe I should have just sent a check directly to some fat cat's pocket. Because that's exactly what just happened.


Hmmm...yeah. I think we're at about $6 trillion on the bail outs. Divide by 300,000,000 Americans. Yeah. If you make the check out for $20,000, that should about cover your share.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby jbrovont » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 22:04:02

If you can hold it in your hand, it's real.

Inflation is clearly outpacing interest and investment growth right now. The only reason to have money in a bank in that environment would be security and convenience of paying bills.

Since the security of deposits are now in question, the only remaining reason to use a bank is to be able to write checks to pay bills.

IMO, there's no good reason to have cash in a bank account right now. In fact, there are a lot of reasons NOT to keep your money in a bank right now.

If you need instant payments, pay with a credit card and pay your bill with a money order, and just pay it off every month.

I can't think of anything else - anyone have a good reason to have cash in a bank right now?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tex123', '"')Likewise. But I have to admit: I am seriously thinking about withdrawing all of my money out of the bank and cashing out my money market account today. I am -> <- this close to doing it, because I keep seeing signs that this is about to spread from the investment bank community to the commercial bank community.

Anyone have any thoughts either way?"

I am right on the edge myself these days. Called my financial advisor the other day who temporarily calmed my fears but after this rally I strangely feel like the government just took a step in the wrong direction. These drastic measures do not make me feel any better and that was their intention right? Apparently it made wallstreet all giddy but I spoke with my husband today about buying precious metals. I know almost nothing about the markets but my intuition tells me something just went terribly wrong and the time to act is short.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 22:17:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'I') can't think of anything else - anyone have a good reason to have cash in a bank right now?


My employees won't take a credit card.

Buying a money order every time you need to pay a bill sucks.

I definitely think it's smart at this point to have some cash on hand, but there are still really valid reasons to maintain a bank account.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby seahorse » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 23:39:41

JD,

How can capitalism ever work to solve the energy crisis if it doesn't exist?
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby cube » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 00:24:45

cube's prediction:

The market will crash.
The government ban on short-selling of financials is absolute proof that these companies are rotted to the core and they're not even worth 50% of their current list price.
There are two players in the stock market:
1) smart money
2) dumb money
The smart money such as hedge funds and the other big institutional investors that were previously Long will now dump their stocks.
Joe Sixpack and all the other "dumb money" folks will see the price drop by 10% and rush in like fools to buy these stocks because they think they're getting a "good deal".

After the "smart money" hands the stocks over to the "dumb money" the price will crash down to the basement. I expect to see the stock market lose 50% of it's peak value sometime in the second half of next year.
There are commodity futures contracts that tract the major stock indexes.
I will make my profits there (leveraged of course) :twisted:
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 00:37:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'I')f you need instant payments, pay with a credit card and pay your bill with a money order, and just pay it off every month.

I can't think of anything else - anyone have a good reason to have cash in a bank right now?


Interest? Don't have room for all those shoeboxes? Uh...

I bet many are thinking along the same lines right now. At the least, diversify into multiple banks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'T')hat's a very "unique" outlook JD.


JD's revealed himself as championing the cause of the everyman lately. How this jibes with the reality of modern industry I'm not sure. Perhaps he expects renewable energy to become the province of high school shop classes. Or he's just in favor of extra-strong regulation to curb capitalist excesses. I'm on board with that as well, to an extent; but this ban in effect outlaws pessimism. It's also a sop to legislators' constituents. Also some of these institutions deserve to flounder. Also we're going to pay for the bailouts down the road. Also legitimate investors worldwide like SPG and Tyler just got kneecapped. The medicine's worse than the disease.

What the hell is going to happen when the ban ends Oct 2?
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 00:48:30

The problem with the stock index futures is that they very high dollar. If you're not a big time player it's super easy to get crushed. The E-mini S&P 500 contract (which is 1/5 of the regular contract) is up $5100 over the last two days.

The other choice for shorting is to buy put options. I'm sure the options markets are going nuts with all this. Options come with difficulties of their own, but index futures are out of my price range.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 01:17:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'J')D's revealed himself as championing the cause of the everyman lately. How this jibes with the reality of modern industry I'm not sure. Perhaps he expects renewable energy to become the province of high school shop classes. Or he's just in favor of extra-strong regulation to curb capitalist excesses.

I favor regulation to curb the excesses. Let's ban SIV's. Let's rethink and restrict the use of credit default swaps. Let's bring anti-trust actions against companies like AIG before they get so big that their failure threatens the entire economy. Let's fix the things that got us here. That cat's already out of the bag. All the shananigans to try and pretend we're not here is what rankles me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat the hell is going to happen when the ban ends Oct 2?

One of two options IMHO. Either they will extend it and it won't end, or it will end and a bunch of these companies will be driven straight into the ground and they'll say "Ahhh Haaa! We were right. It's the evil short sellers."

Isn't it funny how the upside speculators get the blame in oil futures while the short sellers get the blame for the stock market. The denial of fundamentals is shocking.

I wonder if shorts will be solely a day trader thing after 10/2. Sure makes you think twice about holding a position overnight if you never know when Cox might have another midnight surprise cooking.
"We were standing on the edges
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Now is nothing more than a memory
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 01:30:35

All of you need to get out of the markets. Don't short it, or long it. Just get out. Put half your stash in bullion and keep half in cash. If you feel better keeping your cash in a safety deposit box, do it.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby Koyaanisqatsi » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 01:50:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'I') can't think of anything else - anyone have a good reason to have cash in a bank right now?


My employer direct deposits my paycheck into my bank twice a month. My mortgage payment is debited automatically from that account. So far as I recall, this arrangement is required by the mortgage company. But I have been too lackadaisical (or scared) to call and confirm it.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Unread postby Koyaanisqatsi » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 01:58:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')ll of you need to get out of the markets. Don't short it, or long it. Just get out. Put half your stash in bullion and keep half in cash. If you feel better keeping your cash in a safety deposit box, do it.


According to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.
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