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SEC bans short-selling in US

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby cube » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 02:38:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')ll of you need to get out of the markets. Don't short it, or long it. Just get out. Put half your stash in bullion and keep half in cash. If you feel better keeping your cash in a safety deposit box, do it.
getting out == selling
If everybody is selling then who's buying? :?

This goes back to my statement of:
1) smart money
2) dumb money
There has to be losers.

I agree, it is better to pull your hand out of this finger trap NOW even if it means losing your fingernails.
Those who fear the pain of a small loss will have to suffer full amputation of their arms without anesthetics later on. :twisted:
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 06:03:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter a week of escalating panic in the markets, stocks soared for the second consecutive day on Friday, and many investors rejoiced. But below the surface, a new sense of turmoil set in. When Washington changed the rules of Wall Street, winners were turned into losers and losers were turned into winners, and both camps were left fearful about what would come next.

...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Computers that automatically buy and sell for big investors hit snags because they were not programmed for such a restriction. Securities firms and money managers that routinely sell short to hedge against possible losses wondered how they would cope. In certain stocks and funds traded on New York Stock Exchange, some prices and trades were “erroneous,” a spokesman said.

The surge in financial shares was driven at least in part by traders who were forced to buy those stocks to cover earlier short sales, raising doubts about whether the rally will last.

Hedge fund managers who made vast profits betting against the nation’s financial titans called the ban unfair, and said the move would only prolong the financial crisis. Some traders said they were no longer betting on the intrinsic health of companies, but rather on what the government might do next. Others simply withdrew from the market.

“Some of my clients are literally closing their books and going on their vacation for two weeks — they can’t operate in this environment,” said Meredith A. Whitney, a financial services analyst. “You pack up and come back and play the game when you know what the rules are.”

One hedge fund manager, who declined to be named, likened the changes to “turning a football game into badminton.”


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')any players warned that the government’s sweeping actions might have unintended consequences. The ban on short selling raised questions about how certain parts of the capital markets would function. Companies may have a harder time raising money by selling instruments like convertible bonds, which can be exchanged for shares, because many investors short stocks to hedge against the risks of owning these instruments.

Byron Wien, chief investment strategist at Pequot Capital Management, the big hedge fund, said that forcing big investors to disclose short positions could create a run on stocks. It might not be immediately apparent whether investors with short positions were using it to hedge another position or bet against stocks.

In the market for options — instruments that give holders the right to buy or sell shares at certain prices — traders reported frantic trading in Chicago and New York. Many big options traders, or market makers, must frequently sell shares short to hedge other trades.

“It was the most difficult day we have ever seen in the market,” said Peter Bottini, an executive vice president at optionsXpress, a brokerage. “We have had a very volatile day.”

William J. Brodsky, the chief executive of the nation’s largest options exchange, Chicago Board Options Exchange, lashed out at the S.E.C. “The need for the policy intervention notwithstanding, it is difficult to comprehend the merits of a draconian measure that will result in the sudden and severe removal of liquidity from the marketplace at the same time that the government is taking unprecedented steps to preserve it,” he said in a statement.

I could cut and past the whole article so I guess I will just refer everyone over to the nytimes as the source.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 10:57:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', 'A')ccording to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.


I don't know that that is exactly true. When a bank fails it typically closes it's doors, so getting to your box can be an issue. The contents of the box are your property and the bank has no right to it, so it's not like FDIC can seize your box contents to pay the bank's debts or something.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby TheDude » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 11:35:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', 'A')ccording to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.


I don't know that that is exactly true. When a bank fails it typically closes it's doors, so getting to your box can be an issue. The contents of the box are your property and the bank has no right to it, so it's not like FDIC can seize your box contents to pay the bank's debts or something.


Regret having to twist the knife, but do you really believe any law on the books should be trusted now, especially those regarding financial matters? I'm eagerly awaiting the chance to breath easy again, but for now we've entered the Bizzarro World.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Iaato » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 11:46:16

That's a great article, Cur. Changing football into badminton, hah. History repeats on the short-selling ban. (Repost from Housing Collapse.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')"Headline from NY Times, Feb 19, 1932 (a Friday):

"NEW EXCHANGE RULE PUTS DRASTIC CURB UPON SHORT SELLING; After April 1 Brokers Must Ob- tain Written Consent From Clients to Lend Stock. END OF BIG BEARS IS SEEN"

Two weeks later, the Dow (relatively unchanged since the ban) began a 4 month slide of over 50%, down to its ultimate low of the Great Depression.""


NYT Archives 1932
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 12:59:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'R')egret having to twist the knife, but do you really believe any law on the books should be trusted now, especially those regarding financial matters?


Fair enough.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Koyaanisqatsi » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 13:05:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', 'A')ccording to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.


I don't know that that is exactly true. When a bank fails it typically closes it's doors, so getting to your box can be an issue. The contents of the box are your property and the bank has no right to it, so it's not like FDIC can seize your box contents to pay the bank's debts or something.


Regret having to twist the knife, but do you really believe any law on the books should be trusted now, especially those regarding financial matters? I'm eagerly awaiting the chance to breath easy again, but for now we've entered the Bizzarro World.


Also, there was an article posted on LATOC about how some banks ALREADY seize and sell the contents if no one has accessed them in several years. Very shocking. Some clients' addresses were on file but were never contacted. I wish I still had the link but I don't.

As for me, I wouldn't want to risk it.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Starvid » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 14:24:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') expect to see the stock market lose 50% of it's peak value sometime in the second half of next year.

He, the Stockholm stock exchange is down about 50 % since the credit crisis began about a year ago.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby cube » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:05:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') expect to see the stock market lose 50% of it's peak value sometime in the second half of next year.

He, the Stockholm stock exchange is down about 50 % since the credit crisis began about a year ago.
I don't know how it works in Sweden but in America almost EVERYBODY has money in the stock market today. rich:poor, old:young, men:women
A 50% crash would basically wipe out everybody across the board.
A 75% crash which I think "may" happen by 2010 should make things interesting.

However, if we go back to 1929, the stock market was primarily a game for the urban elites. During the initial crash most people were actually happy to see it fall. They saw it as greedy rich people getting what they deserved.
For example do you have any sympathy for people who bought 3 houses and lost money in real estate? ha ha
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Starvid » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:26:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') expect to see the stock market lose 50% of it's peak value sometime in the second half of next year.

He, the Stockholm stock exchange is down about 50 % since the credit crisis began about a year ago.
I don't know how it works in Sweden but in America almost EVERYBODY has money in the stock market today. rich:poor, old:young, men:women
A 50% crash would basically wipe out everybody across the board.
A 75% crash which I think "may" happen by 2010 should make things interesting.

98 % of Swedes have money in the stock market if you include pensions. We are also number one in share and fund ownership in the entire world. But the individual amounts are not really very big: few "ordinary people" (under the level of doctors and engineers etc) have net savings over $10,000 (pensions and homes excluded, but the homes are often worth hundreds of thousands, but most people have mortages to offset some of this wealth).

But what does it really matter if your shares lose half their worth? You haven't lost anything at all as long as you don't sell: so just don't. Wait for better times instead. You'll still pay your rent and buy food, that's what your wage is for. And if you would lose your job... you still won't starve. That's what welfare states are for.

And yeah, I just checked. The index is not down 50 % from the peak, just 40 %. :razz:
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby threadbear » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:38:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')ll of you need to get out of the markets. Don't short it, or long it. Just get out. Put half your stash in bullion and keep half in cash. If you feel better keeping your cash in a safety deposit box, do it.


According to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.


This is highly unlikely, as they would be cutting off one of the only sources of capital to keep the facade from completely crumbling. At the end of the day, you have to do something to preserve what you've got and this is likely the least risky.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Gorm » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:40:23

Yepp, feel good to be in Sweden rigth now. We will be hit hard by this, but i recon we be better of than the most.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby threadbear » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:43:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gorm', 'Y')epp, feel good to be in Sweden rigth now. We will be hit hard by this, but i recon we be better of than the most.


If this thing hits Canada hard, and we have any kind of restriction of our basic human rights, or if crime spirals out of control, I'll emigrate out of here to Sweden, even though you people pretty much annoy me, with your "here for a long time, not a good time" attitudes :lol: :lol: My maiden name is Olsson, so I get post that way!
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Starvid » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:46:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gorm', 'Y')epp, feel good to be in Sweden rigth now. We will be hit hard by this, but i recon we be better of than the most.

Especially as the chairman of the Bank of Sweden (Stefan Ingves), the chairman of the National Debt Office (Bo Lundgren) and the chairman of the Confederation of Swedish Enterprise (Urban Backstrom) were all working at the very core of the Swedish banking crisis 15 years ago, which the current US crisis is almost a carbon copy of. Lundgren has recently been in New York on the invitation of the Federal Reserve to lecture on how you solve this kind of crisis.

And lo and behold, now the Fed is doing just what we did: nationalise the weakest banks and buy the crappy debt and put it in a special state owned company.

For all the worriers: within three years of the end of the Swedish banking crisis taxpayers had recouped half of the money the bailout costed and eventually it ended up not only neutral but became a profit for the taxpayers.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Gorm » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:48:16

Canada? fine with me, 3 of my sisters were born ther ( Vancouver) and I have some cousins there :)

But I guess that Canada also will do pretty ok in comparsion.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Starvid » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 15:48:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gorm', 'Y')epp, feel good to be in Sweden rigth now. We will be hit hard by this, but i recon we be better of than the most.


If this thing hits Canada hard, and we have any kind of restriction of our basic human rights, or if crime spirals out of control, I'll emigrate out of here to Sweden, even though you people pretty much annoy me, with your "here for a long time, not a good time" attitudes :lol: :lol: My maiden name is Olsson, so I get post that way!

If you like human rights Sweden is not the place to be: we aren't even allowed to buy alcohol except in pubs and state monopoly stores! :lol:
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Koyaanisqatsi » Sat 20 Sep 2008, 21:13:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')ll of you need to get out of the markets. Don't short it, or long it. Just get out. Put half your stash in bullion and keep half in cash. If you feel better keeping your cash in a safety deposit box, do it.


According to what others have posted in this forum, a hold can be placed on the contents of safety deposit boxes when a bank fails.


This is highly unlikely, as they would be cutting off one of the only sources of capital to keep the facade from completely crumbling. At the end of the day, you have to do something to preserve what you've got and this is likely the least risky.


Found the article!

Not-so-safe Deposit Boxes

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')an Francisco resident Carla Ruff's safe-deposit box was drilled, seized, and turned over to the state of California, marked "owner unknown."

"I was appalled," Ruff said. "I felt violated."

Unknown? Carla's name was right on documents in the box at the Noe Valley Bank of America location. So was her address -- a house about six blocks from the bank. Carla had a checking account at the bank, too -- still does -- and receives regular statements. Plus, she has receipts showing she's the kind of person who paid her box rental fee. And yet, she says nobody ever notified her.


To each their own - personally, I don't find this reassuring.

Sorry if this is getting off-topic.
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby Tyler_JC » Sun 21 Sep 2008, 00:30:18

Is there any reason why we shouldn't treat that list of 799 DO NOT SHORT stocks as a list of "Companies That Are About To Go Broke"?

If the companies were fundamentally strong, they could release statements talking about their large capital reserves and their strong profitability. No one would be shorting a highly profitable company with a strong balance sheet.

Instead they ran for the protection of the Feds. Doesn't that seem a little odd?

I don't know if I'd want to own any of the stocks on that list.

It's like being handed a list of potentially poisoned apples...would anyone like a bite? :roll:
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby TheDude » Sun 21 Sep 2008, 01:06:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')t's like being handed a list of potentially poisoned apples...would anyone like a bite? :roll:


Really! And how about this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he 799 companies covered by the ban are an A-to-Z of the U.S. financial institutions, including the powerhouse investment banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley and commercial banks running the gamut from Bank of America Corp. to Cape Fear Bank Corp.


"Cape Fear"? "Let's open up a line of credit for you, Counselor!"

SEC Halts Short Selling of 799 Financial Stocks — Here’s the List. Wonder if anyone's matched them up with other ratings.

Many are asking why they didn't reinstate the uptick rule first. Being a layman in re: econ, I had to look up what it was in the first place...nice summarization follows.

This global ban strikes me as really drastic, like issuing a new law on the behavior of traffic signals.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he rule was enacted during the Depression and in response to lessons learned in the crash of 1929 and its aftermath. The intent was to prevent short sellers from accelerating the downward momentum of a security already reeling from a crisis-induced decline.

Quite simply, it required that a short sale be made only at a price "higher than the last different price." In other words, you couldn't short a stock unless it first ticked up an eighth- or a quarter-point.

Over the past decade, critics argued that the uptick rule impeded the process of proper price discovery, especially in our new fast electronic markets. They also note that options and futures markets have no such rule, leading to a disparity with the cash market.

Supporters of the rule (10a-1) argue that it was designed to solve a crisis situation -- like fire insurance on the family home, designed to prevent a possible catastrophic loss. It was enacted to address the runs on the banks of 1929 that resulted in part from a total loss in confidence in financial institutions and led to the failures of even strong banks. When depositors withdraw their funds and customers stop doing business with a financial institution, it fails.


Revive Uptick Rule - Yahoo! News
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Re: SEC bans short-selling in US

Postby smallpoxgirl » Sun 21 Sep 2008, 03:02:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Koyaanisqatsi', 'T')o each their own - personally, I don't find this reassuring.


I hear you, and what happened to that lady is clearly wrong, but I'm not sure how germane it is to most of us. The things that are several important things that aren't said but are strongly implied in that piece. 1: She hadn't been to the box in a long time. They say in the video that one of the keys to avoiding that is to check in on your property at least annually. 2: She didn't keep the address current on the box records. They point out, and rightly so, that the bank had her current address and contact info on other accounts but should have figured out that it was the same person. 3: She didn't pay the rent on the box when it came due. They say the in the piece that she has records showing she "is the kind of person who pays her bills on time." That's a very carefully worded way to avoid saying that she didn't pay her box rent this time.

BTW, on the last page of the article, they list a website where you can go and search a central database of abandoned property. You guys should check it out. I found an electric company deposit that never got returned to me from a couple of years ago.
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