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THE Torture Thread (merged)

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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:19:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'W')e are born to torture. Watch kids...lighting cats tails on fire...pulling the freckled kids hair... We are hard wired to do bad things to others. This is why the elite believe we need to be governed...they are saving us from ourselves.

The only hardwiring thats missing is the parents boot.

If you teach your kids right from wrong, they wont do that to animals. Ask me how I know....House full of pets, and 3 kids. Sometimes they dont realize what they do could hurt the animal. For example, just a few weeks ago my son was in the pool trying to dunk the dog. Not to be malicious, he just though it was funny. Had a little talk with him, explained animals dont like to be dunked etc etc....Didnt have a problem again.

Theres LOTS of excuses for lack of parenting. I have to add "hard wired" to the list it seems.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Roccland » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:24:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'T')heres LOTS of excuses for lack of parenting......I have to add "hard wired" to the list it seems.

Tell ya what bond...

when you have not eaten in a week. Let me know how nice you are.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Heineken » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:37:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'T')heres LOTS of excuses for lack of parenting......I have to add "hard wired" to the list it seems.
Tell ya what bond...when you have not eaten in a week. Let me know how nice you are.

Roccland, have you read Orwell's "Down and Out in Paris and London"? Or his "The Road to Wigan Pier"? They're all about starving, suffering, dreadfully impoverished, cruelly overworked people. These books are straight reporting from real life.

The people Orwell observed didn't torture, maim, or loot (well, there was a little petty theft, by some). What they did do was become cowed, meek, and weak. And bored. Orwell observed this phenomenon again and again and commented on it directly. And he experienced all of it himself.

Naturally, if enough people get in that condition and manage to organize and revolt, torture may follow (as in the French Revolution). But the individual isn't hard-wired to respond that way, according to Orwell's studies. Torture may be more of a group or political behavior, except in cases of individual pathology.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:45:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'T')heres LOTS of excuses for lack of parenting......I have to add "hard wired" to the list it seems.
Tell ya what bond...when you have not eaten in a week. Let me know how nice you are.

Oh how many instances of starvation could one cite throughout history, cases in which no torture took place.

History does not support your theory, not at all. Now, mind you theres a difference between starving, and starving because your neighbor is taking it all for himself. Such an example would be the French revolution in which the aristocrats were eating well while the commoners were starving.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Jack » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:45:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'N')aturally, if enough people get in that condition and manage to organize and revolt, torture may follow (as in the French Revolution). But the individual isn't hard-wired to respond that way, according to Orwell's studies. Torture may be more of a group or political behavior, except in cases of individual pathology.

So you're thinking that individuals don't do such things, but groups - as in the Stanford Prison Experiment - will.

Any thoughts on why a group will do what the individuals won't?
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:47:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'N')aturally, if enough people get in that condition and manage to organize and revolt, torture may follow (as in the French Revolution). But the individual isn't hard-wired to respond that way, according to Orwell's studies. Torture may be more of a group or political behavior, except in cases of individual pathology.
So you're thinking that individuals don't do such things, but groups - as in the Stanford Prison Experiment - will. Any thoughts on why a group will do what the individuals won't?

Herd mentality. Its been proven many times. Why is it a subway or bus full of people will not act when one woman is attacked by a man? "The collective" is a very scary thing.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Heineken » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:47:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'W')e are born to torture. Watch kids...lighting cats tails on fire...pulling the freckled kids hair... We are hard wired to do bad things to others. This is why the elite believe we need to be governed...they are saving us from ourselves.
The only hardwiring thats missing is the parents boot. If you teach your kids right from wrong, they wont do that to animals. Ask me how I know....House full of pets, and 3 kids. Sometimes they dont realize what they do could hurt the animal. For example, just a few weeks ago my son was int he pool trying to dunk the dog. Not to be malicious, he just though it was funny. Had a little talk with him, explained animals dont like to be dunked etc etc..Didnt have a problem again. Theres LOTS of excuses for lack of parenting....I have to add "hard wired" to the list it seems.

Bless you, Cop. Torture of animals is esp. upsetting, since they are scot-free of any of the guilt or evil that can be ascribed, correctly or falsely, to humans.

With rare exceptions (observed among house cats, say), animals never torture other animals. When killing, they kill as quickly and efficiently as they are equipped to do. They just want to get it over so they can start eating. And not waste energy.

What does that say about humans? Only humans are willing to systematically desecrate their own kind, and thereby undermine their own vaunted status.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Heineken » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:54:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'N')aturally, if enough people get in that condition and manage to organize and revolt, torture may follow (as in the French Revolution). But the individual isn't hard-wired to respond that way, according to Orwell's studies. Torture may be more of a group or political behavior, except in cases of individual pathology.
So you're thinking that individuals don't do such things, but groups - as in the Stanford Prison Experiment - will. Any thoughts on why a group will do what the individuals won't?

So often the torturer (or executioner), with his black mask, is an instrument of the group. He is empowered and sanctioned by the group. And sure enough, historically there has often been a crowd of onlookers, cheering and jeering. You can't have that today, of course, in our hypocritical society. Torture takes place secretly, but still, often, as an instrument of public policy as interpreted by some bad leader (e.g., Bush).

Your question about why the group can act so differently from the individual is extremely interesting. Many possible answers occur. The group is a very different animal from the individual.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Roccland » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 09:59:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'B')less you, Cop.

I would guess more people have been tortured for refusing to be blessed by a god then for any other reason.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:04:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'B')less you, Cop.
I would guess more people have been tortured for refusing to be blessed by a god then for any other reason.

Thats not a bet I'd take, I can tell you that!
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Heineken » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:14:11

One of the worst tortures I've heard of was described in a link given earlier. The victim is hung upside-down in a scaffold with his legs spread wide open. The torturer uses a giant saw to cut the victim slowly in half, starting at the point of the anus/scrotum and proceeding downward into the body cavity. The upside-down position preserves blood in the brain, keeping the victim alive and conscious until the great vessels of the abdomen are finally ruptured.

The Asian method of just slowly cutting the victim up, piece by piece, keeping him alive as long as possible, is also ghastly beyond imagining.

Or flaying---the skillful removal of the entire skin while keeping the victim alive. (The victim was then sometimes rolled in salt or acid.)

More than mere horror, descriptions of these practices produce in me the deepest of all melancholies. It's as though I've learned that, no matter how far I thought we could sink, we can sink yet further. It's bottomless how low we can go. Even a gutter rat seems morally superior by comparison.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Roccland » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:19:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'B')less you, Cop.
I would guess more people have been tortured for refusing to be blessed by a god then for any other reason.
Thats not a bet I'd take, I can tell you that!

Hmmm..you have taken other more risky bets 007 :)
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:26:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'B')less you, Cop.
I would guess more people have been tortured for refusing to be blessed by a god then for any other reason.
Thats not a bet I'd take, I can tell you that!
Hmmm..you have taken other more risky bets 007 :)

I generally dont bet. Sometimes the ridiculousness of the claims force my hand. Such as betting we will have elctions, or things of that nature. :wink:
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Specop_007 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 10:27:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')ne of the worst tortures I've heard of was described in a link given earlier. The victim is hung upside-down in a scaffold with his legs spread wide open. The torturer uses a giant saw to cut the victim slowly in half, starting at the point of the anus/scrotum and proceeding downward into the body cavity. The upside-down position preserves blood in the brain, keeping the victim alive and conscious until the great vessels of the abdomen are finally ruptured.
The Asian method of just slowly cutting the victim up, piece by piece, keeping him alive as long as possible, is also ghastly beyond imagining.
Or flaying---the skillful removal of the entire skin while keeping the victim alive. (The victim was then sometimes rolled in salt or acid.)
More than mere horror, descriptions of these practices produce in me the deepest of all melancholies. It's as though I've learned that, no matter how far I thought we could sink, we can sink yet further. It's bottomless how low we can go. Even a gutter rat seems morally superior by comparison.

I'd have to go with impaling. A sharpened stick is set firmly in the ground, then they pick you up and set you on it and twist you back and forth a bit so you slide down. Then they walk off. Gravity slowly pulls you down the stick, forcing it up your pucker hole and into your abdomen.

Yeah, you know most of our history up to a few hundred years ago we had some really really nasty ways of hurting other people.
And people bitch about water boarding.... :lol:
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 13:33:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')ne of the worst tortures I've heard of was described in a link given earlier..


When I was in college we had a professor who taught a class on the history of England. Me, being the Dungeons and Dragons type, was interested in this. Little did I know that this professor got off on illustrating every execution of threats to the crown in minute detail. Think about the scene in Braveheart but instead of just a closeup with Mel Gibson shaking in mock pain, someone explaining it in words with a perverse grin on his face. It was the college equivalent of watching a Faces of Death movie. I never had the same romantic notion of England ever again. Those bastards were ruthless. That probably goes for the vast majority of the ancient world.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Roccland » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 13:41:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')ne of the worst tortures I've heard of was described in a link given earlier..
When I was in college we had a professor who taught a class on the history of England. Me, being the Dungeons and Dragons type, was interested in this. Little did I know that this professor got off on illustrating every execution of threats to the crown in minute detail. Think about the scene in Braveheart but instead of just a closeup with Mel Gibson shaking in mock pain, someone explaining it in words with a perverse grin on his face. It was the college equivalent of watching a Faces of Death movie. I never had the same romantic notion of England ever again. Those bastards were ruthless. That probably goes for the vast majority of the ancient world.

People:

Like to torture

Like dinosuars as kids

Like the smell of their own farts. Really
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby threadbear » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 16:07:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')ne of the worst tortures I've heard of was described in a link given earlier..
When I was in college we had a professor who taught a class on the history of England. Me, being the Dungeons and Dragons type, was interested in this. Little did I know that this professor got off on illustrating every execution of threats to the crown in minute detail. Think about the scene in Braveheart but instead of just a closeup with Mel Gibson shaking in mock pain, someone explaining it in words with a perverse grin on his face. It was the college equivalent of watching a Faces of Death movie. I never had the same romantic notion of England ever again. Those bastards were ruthless. That probably goes for the vast majority of the ancient world.
People: Like to torture; Like dinosuars as kids; Like the smell of their own farts. Really

Poignant, really. This should have been inscribed on the capsule that was sent into orbit a few decades ago. Why tease aliens with misguided nonsense about our base 10 numerical system and rock and roll music when the deeper truth is so simple. We're the perpetual 4 year olds of the universe, alternately feeling overwhelmed with feelings of love, empathy and kindness, and the desire to poke eyes out with a stick. :lol:
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby threadbear » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 16:14:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'R')occland, have you read Orwell's "Down and Out in Paris and London"? Or his "The Road to Wigan Pier"? They're all about starving, suffering, dreadfully impoverished, cruelly overworked people. These books are straight reporting from real life.
The people Orwell observed didn't torture, maim, or loot (well, there was a little petty theft, by some). What they did do was become cowed, meek, and weak. And bored. Orwell observed this phenomenon again and again and commented on it directly. And he experienced all of it himself
As a Wigan person born and bred, my roots in this town go back 200+ years.
George Orwell was a disgrace to this town. What he saw and what he wrote were very different. Starving, suffering, dreadfully impoverished, cruelly overworked people, yes, a few, (as in ANY town), but BY NO MEANS was this the norm.
Wigan was built on Coal, Iron and Cotton. A proud, hard working grimy industrial town back then (and well into the 1960's), with good honest people and rich history, dating back to the Roman times.
Cowed, meek, and weak. And bored !!! -- Ha Ha - go to any Wigan Warriors rugby match and see a bit of real pain and torture !!!! (and they DON'T wear body protection).see photo Gasmon's post

In Down and Out in Paris and London, Orwell is describing the disenfranchised during very hard times. One can extrapolate from his experiences there, to the greater community of man, I guess. If anything, his experiences argue against the idea that civilization is a thin veneer. For most people, civil behaviour goes right to the bone. We ARE basically infantile and immature, as a species, as Roccman describes. Thank God for at least a couple of centuries of Anglo European civility to ameliorate the extremes.
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Re: Torture . . . oh, what monsters we be

Postby Heineken » Thu 28 Aug 2008, 21:21:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'R')occland, have you read Orwell's "Down and Out in Paris and London"? Or his "The Road to Wigan Pier"? They're all about starving, suffering, dreadfully impoverished, cruelly overworked people. These books are straight reporting from real life. The people Orwell observed didn't torture, maim, or loot (well, there was a little petty theft, by some). What they did do was become cowed, meek, and weak. And bored. Orwell observed this phenomenon again and again and commented on it directly. And he experienced all of it himself
As a Wigan person born and bred, my roots in this town go back 200+ years.
George Orwell was a disgrace to this town. What he saw and what he wrote were very different. Starving, suffering, dreadfully impoverished, cruelly overworked people, yes, a few, (as in ANY town), but BY NO MEANS was this the norm.
Wigan was built on Coal, Iron and Cotton. A proud, hard working grimy industrial town back then (and well into the 1960's), with good honest people and rich history, dating back to the Roman times.
Cowed, meek, and weak. And bored !!! -- Ha Ha - go to any Wigan Warriors rugby match and see a bit of real pain and torture !!!! (and they DON'T wear body protection). See photo Garmon's post

Orwell's book wasn't about "the norm." It was about the poor. Orwell investigated conditions in Wigan in the 1930s, during the Depression. Were you there then?

If conditions have improved since then, you can thank the courage of people like George Orwell, who championed the coal miner and the other working---and unemployed---poor. The very same tough, proud, simple souls of whom you speak.

Naturally, whenever anyone exposes a disgrace, there will always be a faction in place to attack him. Even 70 years later!

Sorry if Orwell ruffled the feathers of your town fathers and colliery owners.
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