[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')o we are still screwed or not Monte?

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'E')arth was, is and will be an OPEN system as long as it existst.
Why it is open system?
- We are receiving energy from external sources like Sun, Galaxy, visible Universe...

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'E')arth was, is and will be an OPEN system as long as it existst.
Why it is open system?
- We are receiving energy from external sources like Sun, Galaxy, visible Universe...

[emailking]

Also depends on your timescale. Some believe the water in the oceans came from eons of comet crashes. In that context, the earth is very much an open system.

Also, most of the matter we accumulate from space comes in the form of dust. 3,000 tons of meteorite dust fall on the earth everyday. So it also depends on your scale. Compared to the earth's mass, that's hardly anything. But it's not the "occasional meteorite" that matters.

[NEOPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'E')arth was, is and will be an OPEN system as long as it existst.
Why it is open system?
- We are receiving energy from external sources like Sun, Galaxy, visible Universe...

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '.')..

3000 tons of meteorite dust

...

[rwwff]

I think my adjustment to the definition might be more honest...
rip from lighthouse:
An open system includes the transfer and exchange of both matter and energy with the system's surroundings. All of the systems on Earth are classified as open systems. However, the Earth system as a whole is considered a closed system because there is a limit to how much matter can be exchanged.without resulting in the death of all the observers

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', 'T')he Second Law of Thermo Dynamics states that whenever energy is converted from one form to another, there is an energy loss in the form of heat. This is the law of entropy as well, which is a measure of the amount of energy no longer practically capable of conversion to work. Entropy within an isolated system inevitably increases over time. Since it takes work to create and maintain order within a system, the entropy law tells us that, in the battle between order and chaos, it is chaos that ultimately wins.

The only truly isolated system we know of is the universe; or in a laboratory experiment. But there are two other system types: open and closed. The earth is an example of a closed system. It exchanges energy with the universe, but not matter, save the occasional meteorite. Since it is a closed system it's environment is always being degraded by entropy, but the thermodynamic equilibrium with space is maintained by the input of solar radiation.

Living organisms, on the other hand, are an example of an open system, where both matter and energy are exchanged.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '.')..

3000 tons of meteorite dust

...

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kachina', '[')b]Calling all experts...
And why do the experts never agree?
Why am I caught in the crossfire of intellect trying to sort out the conflicting views of the experts?
Does the truth exist beyond those experts who claim they know?

[shakespear1]

Very interesting read about Bell's Theorem, Thanks

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', ' ')As I do agree, that living organisms are open systems, I will still insist, that Earth is still an OPEN system as well.
You see, we are now losing entire MOON to the space (you know, slowly but still it is going away).
I concentrated on energy exchange in my definition as mass and energy are related (mass is a form of energy).
However if you want to stay with more "traditional" definitions, slow loss of moon is a good enough reason to consider Earth system to be open.
Possible "merger" with a Sun in distant future would add weight to this argument (I know - you may argue that it is Sun, which is closed system and Earth is still not open...but those are academic arguments only).

Metheorities, particles of cosmic radiation, satelites etc would still convince a purist, that Earth is an open system in traditional sense.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')t isn't up for debate or revision. The definitions I gave on Isolated, Open and Closed systems is what the scienitific community uses and will continue to use.

Besides, trying to change the definition parameters does not change the laws of thermodynamics, it merely confuses the discussion.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', ' ')What would our barrier be, our event horizon?

MonteQ what say you?

[Quinny]

Anyone out there know the Author or ISBN no of the above.

I read it about 25 years ago and found it fascinating. The author basically expanded second law to encompass all sorts of interesting areas. eg Social Science, Town Planning, Crime etc

Basically taking that all communication transforms energy, so the more energy used, the more waste/less useful energy. So basically large scale industrialisation and cities cause human fallout as well as pollution.

I bought it, but someone I lent it to didn't return it.

[aldente]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', '
')
I bought it, but someone I lent it to didn't return it.

[Quinny]

Wasn't me - Honest!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', '
')
I bought it, but someone I lent it to didn't return it.

[Kaj]

Heya, yeah I read it, it was okay, but there were the usual problems associated with trying to bungle everything into one neat theory.

His premise was basically that with every technological advance we are actually unwittingly taking a step backwards because every added layer of complexity speeds up the rate of entropy.

AFAICT it works for a lot of things, but not everything--because sometimes technological advance can make systems less complex. E.g. advances in information storage and transmission do mean that we are able to use less and less energy for these functions, while they are also expanding in capability.

[Quinny]

point taken, my recollection is that it wasn't just complexity, but more a matter of scale and volume.

i recall the main idea being the more we do the quicker the end.

i cant remember the whole book, but found it interesting.

btw do you recall the authors name

jeremy something has just sprung to mind.

[lper100km]

How's this?

http://www.foet.org/books/entropy.html