[SILENTTODD]

I read the New York Times website each morning before I start work, and glance at the postings on this site on my breaks. So it surprises me I did not see any reference to this New York Times post today. I have not been able to get a proper link to this article that will work. But you can find it here: link

This was posted by a Benny Morris, who I’m sure, after reading this piece, is a devout Israeli Zionist. I am not. As an American, Gentile, Agnostic/Atheist, I really don’t give a shit what happens to Israel. I personally believe the unconditional support of Israel has been a pox upon this nation (USA).

I can think of nothing that will endanger the further existence of Israel than to unilaterally attack Iran, possibly with nuclear weapons it possesses. There are already Islamic Bombs. Pakistan has lots of them! At least as good as anything Israel has. Don’t believe me? Get a December 2001 issue of Scientific American and the article “India, Pakistan and the Bomb” (get a web subscription).

I can think of nothing that will alienate the average American’s support of Israel than for the price of Oil to go over $300 a barrel oil because of their unilateral attack on Iran.
If it wants to start Wars, Israel deserves what ever it gets.

[Fishman]

ST, You have a reasonable argument. Suggestions for Israel however if they allow an aggressive Iran to acquire nukes? Iran has said they think Israel should cease to exist, Iran funds Hezbollah attacking Israel and subjugating Lebanon to Israel's north. Iran has not responded to diplomatic pressure. And though our intelligence agency states Iran is not developing a bomb at present, they continue uranium enrichment and missile delivery systems. Pakistan has not recently called for the end of Israel (perhaps the end of India) recently. And lastly, a Shia Iran with nukes will surely lead to a Sunni Saudi, Egypt, ... with nukes. Suggestions for someone in Israel's shoes?

[WyoDutch]

Same here... I could give a tinker's damn less what happens to Israel... they've had their grasping claws in the American taxpayer's pocket long enough.

Look at what it cost Americans to bail-out Israel when the Arabs were kicking their arse back in 1973. When Israel was losing the war, President Richard Nixon stepped in to supply the Jewish state with U.S. weapons. Nixon's intervention triggered the Arab oil embargo which cost the U.S. as much as $600 billion in lost GDP and another $450 billion in higher oil import costs.

As a result of the oil embargo the United States created the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) to "insulate Israel and the U.S. against the wielding of a future Arab 'oil weapon'." The billion-barrel SPR has cost U.S. taxpayers $134 billion to date. According to an Oil Supply Guarantee, which former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger provided Israel in 1975, Israel gets 'first call' on any oil available to the U.S. if Israel's oil supply is stopped.

Oh... and how has Israel repayed our slavish loyalty? **Israel has sold advanced military technology to China for more than a decade and is moving to expand its cooperation with Beijing, says R. James Woolsey, former Director of Central Intelligence.

The C.I.A. assessment was provided in written responses to questions by the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee. The committee made the assessment public last week as part of a report on recent hearings it conducted on "proliferation threats of the 1990's," a committee aide said tonight.

There have been many news reports about the sale of Israeli military technology to China, which did not establish diplomatic relations with Israel until 1992, and the Rand Corporation has made similar assessments. The C.I.A.'s response to the committee was reported tonight by NBC News and confirmed by the aide.

The C.I.A. says China has been acquiring advanced military technology from Israel for more than a decade on programs for jet fighters, air-to-air missiles and tanks. The agency said the sale of Israeli military technology to China "may be several billion dollars."

** Reported in NYT, 10/12/1993

Perhaps our perverted relationship with Israel is best characterized by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff:

"I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to the Israelis. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."

[hermit]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')T, You have a reasonable argument. Suggestions for Israel however if they allow an aggressive Iran to acquire nukes? Iran has said they think Israel should cease to exist,

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', 'I')f it wants to start Wars, Israel deserves what ever it gets.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hermit', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')T, You have a reasonable argument. Suggestions for Israel however if they allow an aggressive Iran to acquire nukes? Iran has said they think Israel should cease to exist,

[idiom]

Israels leadership is a bit flakey of late, having successfully weeded out anyone with balls or brains and leaving just the career politicians holding down the fort.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')hey wouldn't start a war they felt they didn't have to fight.

[hermit]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hermit', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')T, You have a reasonable argument. Suggestions for Israel however if they allow an aggressive Iran to acquire nukes? Iran has said they think Israel should cease to exist,

[centralstump]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hermit', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hermit', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')T, You have a reasonable argument. Suggestions for Israel however if they allow an aggressive Iran to acquire nukes? Iran has said they think Israel should cease to exist,

[jbrovont]

Israel's biggest problem is location. From the time the country was established after WWII, they've been on someone else's land. The people that were there before never gave up wanting it back. Israel's response hasn't exactly been diplomacy - it's been heavy handed and aggressively unbalanced use of force permitted by the use of US military technology.

Everytime Israel kills a "terrorist," the people on the other side see an illegitamate invader killing a "patriot," to put it in more familiar terms. It's somewhat like the US taking land from Native Americans. They were here first, but we decided "hey - this is ours." They banded together despite tribal conflicts and most faught to the death against superior forces and military technology in the face of what most knew were impossible odds. They were defending what was "theirs." So everytime Israel has had a "victory" killing a few "terrorists" or retaliated by killing 10 Palestinian civilians for every 1 Israeli dead, they've created 10 more followers for every casualty - one more act of oppression and cruelty the Muslim world sees as an attack against their culture and their people.

Even the leaders of the rebellion can't control the anger of the people any more. They've tried several times to have a cease fire, but the people are so angry at Israel they keep attacking. Israel has been trying to use overwhelming military retaliation to control and destroy a populist movement for so long, they probably don't have a diplomatic option anymore. There's a point where people get so angry that you can't just say "sorry let's stop fighting." They want vengance, and much of the Arab/Muslim world looks at the Israeli government the same way the Jews looked at the Nazis. They look at what's happened to the Palestinians and they see a holocaust, and they see the United States standing behind Israel helping to execute it.

Are Israelis evil? No - they were put in a bad situation by a bad decision to carve up a country and a society where everyone knew in advance that there were severe theological rifts that would drive conflict. War and armed retaliation followed, and Israel used force to defend what they had been told was "theirs." This conflict has bread anger and mistrust, which has grown into hate.

If there was to be peace in the region, it would take generations of intensive efforts at understanding and reconciliation to undo the hate that's grown between the Israelis and the Arab world. Just like the apartheid in South Africa - years and years for the wounds to begin to heal, and that can begin to happen only after the violence between their peoples stops.

If the healing can begin before those who feel they are oppressed gain the ability to retaliate in a meaningful way, peace is a possibility. On the other hand, if they acquire a way to "wipe Israel off the map" (I know that's not exactly what he said) while the hate and violence still festers, in the words of Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide, I have no doubt that Ahmadinejad will say "Yes. By all means sir, drop that fucker. Twice."

Is Iran building a bomb? That's debatable. I have no idea. US Intel seems to think not. Bush & Co. think yes. Israel doesn't seem sure, but can't afford to risk it.

The Israeli government has made some really bad choices regarding responding to violence, and now they've pretty much checkmated themselves. The US can't protect them forever, and they're surrounded by people that hate them. If they attack, they face economic and military retaliation that will weaken the US and thus increase the power of their enemies. If they wait and do nothing, with diplomacy for peace basically failing, their enemies will acquire the ability to destroy them before any kind of peace can be made.

The only real options they have are get serious about stopping their violence right now and figure out how to help the Palestinian leaders stop their people from being violent and hope they can become "accepted" in 50 to 100 years, or continue using overwhelming force to suppress their neighboring countries with pre-emptive attacks.

[hermit]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('centralstump', 'Y')ou are a dreamer or a White Supremist if you believe otherwise.

[Viper]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only real options they have are get serious about stopping their violence right now and figure out how to help the Palestinian leaders stop their people from being violent and hope they can become "accepted" in 50 to 100 years, or continue using overwhelming force to suppress their neighboring countries with pre-emptive attacks.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Viper', 'B')y the way, as an aside. I am always amazed at the level of attention people pour on Israel's nuclear arsenal while totally ignoring the fact that Israel has one of the most advanced genetic engineering programs on the planet and is NOT a signatory of any anti-biological weapons treaties while they ARE a signatory to an anti-chemical weapons treaty. As with their nuclear program, they make no statements positive or negative regarding their position of bio-weaponry. Bio engineered viruses make nuclear weapons look like children’s toys. You think the worst thing Israel could do to Iran is a nuclear missile strike? How about one disgruntled Iranian student with a vial?

[Viper]

@SILENTTODD:

A "Rouge" nation is a rouge nation because we say it is. Not because of any measurable quality. The US has never declared Israel a rouge nation and most likely never will. The UK, Russia, China, India and pretty much the rest of the civilized world also has not declared Israel a rouge nation for the same reason that nobody declares the US a rouge nation for possessing nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. To be a rouge nation you have to be someone the US government dislikes. Israel, on a geopolitical level, is pretty good at staying off of people's s$%t lists.

As for your tax dollars. No problem. Stop sending $1 billion dollars to Egypt per year. Israel will spin up its Air Defense industries and make up the shortfall by selling Kfir’s to the people who currently buy our F-16’s. The people who will really be getting hurt by what you’re proposing are the employees of Boeing Inc. which is where Israel is currently required to spend those tax dollars.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for your tax dollars. No problem. Stop sending $1 billion dollars to Egypt per year. Israel will spin up its Air Defense industries and make up the shortfall by selling Kfir’s to the people who currently buy our F-16’s. The people who will really be getting hurt by what you’re proposing are the employees of Boeing Inc. which is where Israel is currently required to spend those tax dollars.

[Viper]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen we are in agreement. Israel needs to stand on its on two legs without subsides from the ignorant gentiles in the United States!

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Viper', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen we are in agreement. Israel needs to stand on its on two legs without subsides from the ignorant gentiles in the United States!

[Ferretlover]

Excuse me, but, and correct me if I am wrong, but are you talking about Rouge (red) nations, or Rogue (maverick) nations?

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'E')xcuse me, but, and correct me if I am wrong, but are you talking about Rouge (red) nations, or Rogue (maverick) nations?