[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he Tesla roadster specs:
54,000 watt*hour battery pack
220 mile range
54,000/220 == 245 Wh/mile
The Tesla is a sports car but the range was derived using *normal* driving conditions.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he Tesla roadster specs:
54,000 watt*hour battery pack
220 mile range
54,000/220 == 245 Wh/mile
The Tesla is a sports car but the range was derived using *normal* driving conditions.

[cube]

To: TheDude

Yesplease knows I have him on my ignore list so I cannot read what he says unless somebody else quotes him like what you just did.
I think it's "hitting below the belt" to talk about somebody behind their back by miss-quoting them knowing they cannot read what is being said.
That type of behavior is what I would expect from a bunch of vindictive beauty pageant contestants backstage.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he Tesla roadster specs:
54,000 watt*hour battery pack
220 mile range
54,000/220 == 245 Wh/mile
The Tesla is a sports car but the range was derived using *normal* driving conditions.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')his is not an innocent accident.
He knows 100Wh/mile is unrealistic.
I've explained "Battery pack capacity to vehicle range" to him previously.
I don't like lies being spread around.
I think it severely diminishes the quality of this message board.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'R')egardless of whose or of which pie-in-the-sky, I'm extremely bearish on a technology that will economically replace fossil fuel in the near term and without side-effects. Even if there is an EV that consumes 1kWh, then the problem will only get worse. Everybody will want to have that EV, and people are going to drive and destroy even more. Think about that. Technology is not necessary our friend.

[Ghog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', ' ')I guess that on the flip-side, I'm extremely bearish of the notion that current transportation methods for the most part were ever economically viable to anyone but those making big bucks off of them.

[vilemerchant]

Yesplease, I think you're overdoing the economics of EVs for everyone. The whole point of them is that they don't use massive amounts of oil to get around, not that they can be affordable for the millions of Americans to continue their current driving lifestyles in. These early EVs will be for those who CAN afford to keep driving, and the reason the poor won't continue to drive their old ICE cars is because there won't be any gas available to do so. Petroleum products will eventually have to be quarantined for trucking, shipping, agriculture and public transport.

The poor will ride the bus or their bike, the days of personal transport for all and sundry will be over.

[cube]

To: vilemerchant
I encourage anyone who is serious to do their own homework and trust NO ONE. Not even me.
1) listen to everyone
2) do your own homework
3) sort out who is being truthful and who likes to "over-inflate" things

here's a good photo-album of EV converted cars
http://www.evalbum.com/

You'll notice, very quickly in less than 5 minutes, that half the cars have a range of 40miles per charge or even less!
I've said it before no technology has been "over-inflated" more times then EV cars.

[lper100km]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', 'A') small vehicle, rating 50mpg requires 36,000Wh. That’s for a gasoline engine with an overall tank to wheel efficiency of a generous 35%. An equivalent EV using the same vehicle body and driving pattern, should achieve around 90% efficiency, battery pack to wheels, maybe even slightly better. This calculates out to around 14,000 Wh or 280Wh per mile.

[lper100km]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', '
')So, at a superficial level, an EV is approx 67% more energy efficient than an equivalent gasoline powered vehicle. What should be added in each case, is the energy needed to produce a 36,000kW energy by the extraction, refining and delivery process for gasoline and to produce 21,500kW by the generation process for electrical power. This would give a more complete statement of the overall power consumed to drive one mile down the hiway. I do not have access to those numbers unfortunately.

The underlying assumption is that 'normal' driving speeds are being achieved. 100kWh per mile will get you there, just at 15mph, not 65mph.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vilemerchant', 'Y')esplease, I think you're overdoing the economics of EVs for everyone. The whole point of them is that they don't use massive amounts of oil to get around, not that they can be affordable for the millions of Americans to continue their current driving lifestyles in.

[dohboi]

cube wrote:

"Yesplease knows I have him on my ignore list so I cannot read what he says unless somebody else quotes him like what you just did. I think it's "hitting below the belt" to talk about somebody behind their back by miss-quoting them knowing they cannot read what is being said."

So this guy puts people on his ignore list right and left and then whines because they're saying things that he can't read!!?? Man, talk about pathetic!

Back on topic--it is my experience as an EV owner that:

a) They are affordable to most now: I got my Zenn for about $12 thousand, far cheeper than most new cars. And as toecutter and others have pointed out, anyone with a modicum of knowhow (more than I have anyway) can build their own for much less.

b) people have to drastically adjust their expectation of what a car is. The behemoths that most have been driving around are almost always absurdly ill suited to the task of dragging their (relatively) puny carcasses around. Hugely inefficient and stupid. Like killing a gnat with a sledge hammer--might get the job done, but sure to cause major colateral dammage.

c) mostly we have to move rapidly away from car culture into living locally, walking and biking most places... Unfortunately, the huge investments in infrastructure to support our ICE-car-centered society make it hard in many places to live without one.

d) good points about energy loss with charging, but in general, these things are hugely more efficient than ICE cars. I pay less than two cents a mile, while even a forty mpg car costs ten cents a mile to run. It's just a much more efficient technology, especially when used at the moderate speeds and ranges needed by most urban people most of the time.

That said, most of us should be going straight to no-car lifestyles. The EV was a compromise position to keep things happy in the family

[Nicholai]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat said, most of us should be going straight to no-car lifestyles.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', 'W')ill we ever see a no-growth lifestyle? A 'no-growth' civilization?

[Nicholai]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')arbage in-Garbage out.

[Nicholai]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is not just peak stuff that we are coming up against. It is peak planet earth, peak entropic sink, peak population, peak people.

[outcast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat said, most of us should be going straight to no-car lifestyles.