[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'T')he best part would be in 4 years or 10 years or whenever when some part starts to go. On all 200,000 giant ass windmills. Have fun swapping out the bearings, or whatever . . .

[arretium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('darwinsdog', 'W')here's the energy for producing all that cement, mining & smelting all that iron & copper, supposed to come from? Get real big Al. There's not going to be much more energy than your own muscles can provide, provided you have anything to eat, in the near future. We're going to be lucky if we can even score wood to burn. All the techno-fix visionaries are full of crap. Denial motivated by fear, is all they're spewing.

[arretium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blewbird', 'W')ith all respect, I understand you are an expert but we must remember that the problem is not energy per se, but expensive energy.
Again, sorry if you already know this but I will state it for others who are new. In mentioning building trillions of dollars of solar and windmills for a small increase of energy we must remember two things.
1. Building time until production time.
2. Cost total must be paid for by raising prices
3. the problem will not come from lack of energy, but from lack of cheap energy.
4. Downsizing will completely destroy the american economy

[Blewbird]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arretium', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('darwinsdog', 'W')here's the energy for producing all that cement, mining & smelting all that iron & copper, supposed to come from? Get real big Al. There's not going to be much more energy than your own muscles can provide, provided you have anything to eat, in the near future. We're going to be lucky if we can even score wood to burn. All the techno-fix visionaries are full of crap. Denial motivated by fear, is all they're spewing.

[Blewbird]

There will be no downsizing of the economy. It either grows or collapses.

[Blewbird]

Look, let me put it in a way that modern kids can understand:
Let me set up a scenario.

BONANZA!
The show chronicled the weekly adventures of the Cartwright family, headed by wise, thrice-widowed patriarch Ben Cartwright (played by Lorne Greene). He had three sons, each by a different wife: the oldest was the urbane architect Adam Cartwright (played by Pernell Roberts) who built the ranch house; the second was the warm and lovable giant Eric, better known by his nickname: "Hoss" (played by Dan Blocker); and the youngest was the hotheaded and impetuous Joseph or "Little Joe" (played by Michael Landon). The family's cook was the Chinese immigrant Hop Sing (played by Victor Sen Yung). "Bonanza" was considered an atypical western for its time, as the core of the storylines dealt with Ben and his three dissimilar sons, how they cared for one another, their neighbors and their land.

The family lived on a thousand-square-mile ranch called "The Ponderosa", on the shore of Lake Tahoe in Nevada; the name refers to the Ponderosa Pine, common in the West. The nearest town to the Ponderosa was Virginia City, where the Cartwrights would go to converse with Sheriff Roy Coffee (played by veteran actor Ray Teal), or his deputy Clem Foster (Bing Russell). Greene, Roberts, Blocker, and Landon were equal stars. The opening credits rotated among four versions, with each of the four being shown first in one version (in the order above). As the series advanced, writers began to showcase one or two Cartwrights in each episode, while the others would be seen briefly in the prologue and epilogue. Not only did this provide for more thorough character development, it also gave all four actors more free time.

Originally, the Cartwrights tended to be depicted as put-off by outsiders. Lorne Greene pointed out to the producers that as one of the region's most affluent timber and livestock producers, they had better moderate their clannishness. The producers agreed with this observation and changed the Cartwrights to be more amiable.



Ok, Hoss and little joe are taking their wagon into Virginia city and as they arrive in the city, suddenly the oil warp occurs. Little do they realize that 200 years into the future, the oil runs out and the simultaneous explosion of tens of thousands of nukes warp time and space.

Suddenly we have a 21st centruy of people transported back to the ponderosa.

Instead of 5000 head of cattle in the field you have all the people from

Carson city, Fariview, stewart, indian hills, jack's valley, Glenbrook, lincoln park, skyland incline village crystal bay Kings beach Brockway, Carson hot springs, new empire, Brunswick, all suddenly appear. standing in the fields.

And they are hungry.

And Hoss and little Joe only have two guns.

and all the cattle die from the shock (since we will not have cattle or horses or wagons these must be removed by le machine de deux, or somthing so lets say the wagon collpses the horse dies and the cows keel over.

just from sheer weight the wheat fields are trampled.

the population of virginia city increases from 1400 to 2 million.

and Hop sing doesn't have enough flied chicken for these people.

What will happen?
Will the cartwrights have unexpected dinner guests?
How long will they survive?
Who will these people attack?
How many will run for the nearest farm house with flied chicken smell coming from the windows?
Who gets their first?
How many bullets does Aaron and papa cartwright have?
Will hop sing have a heart attack?

stay tuned.

[JC_SaltLaker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'I')f you wanted to convert 20% of America's electricity to solar, riddle me this . . .

[idiom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4')7,788 windmills

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idiom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4')7,788 windmills

[Hagakure_Leofman]

too bad we can't power off the hot air in this thread.
Such as waste of energy.

[Cabrone]

The US consumes around 21M bbl of oil p.day @ around $140.

Current daily cost = $2.94 billion

Cost over 10 years = $10.7 trillion (assuming current consumption and a steady $140 p.bbl price over the next decade)

How many CSP\Wind\Tidal\Wave\Biomass\Nuclear plants could be put up for this amount of $$ and how much would grid strengthening cost?

Al Gore is right, it's a no brainer really (except to some of the cave dwellers on here).

[Dont_Panic]

For every great development in history, there has been a choir of naysayers screaming "WAAAAAAAAAAAH! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!".

Naysayers don't bring the world forward, people with visions do.
By concluding that it's impossible, you're not a part of the solution. But I guess you guys don't want a solution anyway.

Even if 100% in 10 years is too optimistic, we should really try to get as close as possible and start now before it's too late. 100 in 10 is basically a random number, the idea Gore is trying to get across is that there's trouble ahead we should should start moving our fat butts NOW.
But I reckon the situation needs to get really critical before things start happening. It may or may not be too late by then.

[Toyota]

This man is getting crazy, he likes being in the middle!

Nobody cares what he says, and how he got the FN award, i dont now! How many poor people have he saved, not many!

[Cashmere]

Wow. The Alaholics on this thread are amazing.

One says - "10 trillion - that's doable." Nice. The U.S. budget is about 2.9 trillion. So if we simply stop spending money, we'll have the required amount, by your number, in about 3 years. Well done.

Another implies - "take the money we spend on oil and use it to put up wind turbines." Great. I suppose we'll use donkey carts to move people and stuff while the turbines go up.

Another says - "look at this link - it supports my side" and then I go to that link and it says that the turbines have been updated since their 1980s installation. If you're going to try to argue that windmills are low maintenance, you'll have to do better.

Another says that 100% no-carbon based electricity in 10 years is "optimistic." If that's "optimistic", so too is a colony on Mars by 2050.

Another says that I'm a nay-sayer and people like me impeded progress.

People like me drive this world. I can look at my tax receipts and tell you that.


Let me be clear about this. The idea of dumping a bunch of money into windmills misses the core issue, which, if you've been reading the site Kiosk recently, you'll recognize as overshoot.

It makes little sense to invest in an expanded electrical infrastructure at this juncture for <i>at least</i> the following reasons:

1. We will have a liquid fuels/natural gas crisis long before we have an electricity crisis.

2. Spending money on wind turbines without first mandating massive power downs in usage is a waste of money. We would be, essentially, putting up windmills so that people could watch big TVs and use hairblowers.

3. The biggest problem that we will face in the next 2 decades will have nothing to do with electricity. The biggest problem we will face is keeping society from fragmenting and keeping people fed.

4. We already have more than enough electrical generation. I suggest that we immediately impose a 20-50% usage reduction on all non-commercial users. If you don't want to turn your lights off, and you pass your limit, then you pay 10x the amount for additional power. <i><b>Generating more electricity is not the answer, because the problem is not insufficient electrical generation</b></i>.


It is my opinion that much of the to-do about windmills is left over from a pre-peak oil mindset.

Peak Oil changes everything. Carbon emissions are now completely and irreversibly irrelevant.

What is relevant is that <b><i>we will soon be facing a potential 8%+ decline in oil and perhaps more in Natural Gas, with a halving of supply within 10 years, and we're going to need to worry about feeding everyone well before we worry about everybody having 24/7 110V/AC access</b></i>.

I suppose I've pulled a MonteQuest here, but I hope everybody understands why I have made this argument.

Arguing about carbon emissions and wind power and this sort of thing is now a major distraction from the core issue, and as long as people like Al Gore continue to keep the spot light on such uncritical issues, we further dig ourselves into the oil depletion pit of no return.

If we had 10 trillion laying around to spend, we should use it to immediately begin setting up a population control system and a power down plan that considers as its end point that we are a mere decade or two away from returning to non-fossil fuel based food production.

THAT is the critical issue, and remember this admonition . . .

You cannot eat electricity.

[joelcolorado]

I have natural gas well on my land that they are just waiting on the price to go up before opening it up. I KNOW THIS for a fact. Geologist who developed it said the gas in the area is huge but they need a certain price to develop the lines and piping to make it pay off.

You go out there and turn the big valve and cannot believe the pressure.

[joelcolorado]

Look Al might be right on some things but he uses a thousand times more energy than the common man. If he was serious, he would do better.

He also outsources his company to England and stands to make untold millions on GREEN energy policies he is helping to create.
Fox guarding the henhouse

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') guess you didn't read everything I said previously.
That's only good enough for 20%.
Al Gore says we can do 100%.

[joelcolorado]

There are 8 pieces in every pie.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'O')ne says - "10 trillion - that's doable." Nice. The U.S. budget is about 2.9 trillion. So if we simply stop spending money, we'll have the required amount, by your number, in about 3 years. Well done.

[Cashmere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yes please', 'W')ait a ignore the rest of the post. Laughing Yeah, sure, we could drop the entire budget on it and have it done in three years, or <b><i>we could dump whatever is spent on gasoline and the externalized costs of autos and have it done in a decade</b></i>, or by 2020 assuming the minimal estimate of the externalized costs of autos.