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Welcome to PO.com- home of survivalists.

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 18:22:44

Bart, I think you hit on the touchstone of the survivalist – if only by way of a backhanded compliment:

“However, for those hyper-individualists who are handy with tools, there is a ray of hope.â€
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Unread postby Ludi » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 18:27:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o camo, little ammo, but handy with tools…


That's the kind of guy I want on my team! :-D
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Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 18:34:59

Ludi, don’t get me wrong – remember; I’m “handy with toolsâ€
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Unread postby Ludi » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 18:44:01

I'm really serious though - I'd much rather have as a "tribe member" someone who is handy than someone who is itching to shoot up the first person who happens to wander onto the place unannounced. A person who is resourceful and capable will be able to help provide for people in a way which may avoid the need for competition and violence. With plenty of resourcefulness and handiness, these dire scenarios of violence and privation might be avoided. But if everyone is busy stocking up on guns and ammo instead of learning transitional ways of life and how to help others learn them, where will we be? We'll be busy shooting eachother over the last MRE.
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Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:02:32

I know you are serious, and I respect that. And I agree that many of the Rambo fantasies are just that – fantasies. The old saying is “A man must know his limitations.â€
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Unread postby alpha480v » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:06:10

I am going to make sure that I am prepared for any contingency,and if that includes buying weapons,ammo,and putting away food in an easily defended position that ensures the safety of my family if and when the shtf,then so be it.I am not a "gun-nut",and resent being lumped into that classification, as if anyone who is planning for a hard crash should be considered that..I am simply trying to make sure that my family has a chance to survive what I think could potentially be the end of present American society as we know it.We have a nation that has the majority of it's citizenry armed,some of them not the nicest people around,and if you couple that with peak oil,and all the potential hardships this entails,this could be a recipe for disaster.Besides,I'm not into standing around a campfire,holding hands,and singing kum-ba-yah. :razz:
Last edited by alpha480v on Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:09:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:06:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'B')ut if everyone is busy stocking up on guns and ammo instead of learning transitional ways of life and how to help others learn them, where will we be?


Why are those two mutually exclusive? I am big into sustainable living.. In the process of moving to land where I can build sustainable housing, start growing my own food, start a goat herd and a chicken flock. I can my own foods. I dry my own food. I can brain tan. I can weld. I do all my own vehicle repair. I can knit. I want to learn to spin.

I also own guns and am stocking up on ammo. I think that self-defense has always been a part of sustainable living. If you can't defend yourself, you're going to have someone to do it for you. Sure the boys get a bit bravado about it. Boys always have. Lakota and Cherokee men often posed with their bows. So the boys here pose with their AR's. Where's the harm? Defense of the tribe has usually been a men's function historically, and I say more power to them. Doesn't mean it's their only function.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')e'll be busy shooting eachother over the last MRE.


It's mine damn it. Get your grubby fingers off! :twisted:

:-D
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Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:15:41

OK, Ludi and smallpoxgirl are both welcome at our "survivalist retreat" anytime!

(Just call ahead so the really dangerous one knows you are coming.)
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Unread postby oowolf » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:39:55

Let's roast a goat, drink some 'shine, and shoot up some metal targets!
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Unread postby TrueKaiser » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 19:44:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'U')nfortunately, in America "Survivalists" have hyjacked the Peak Oil argument and dragged it's credibility down to the same level as UFOs and such. I seem to remember one member commenting that the posts have degenerated into "mutual mastribation" sesions, where doomers share their post peak fantasies. It would seem that living a Survivalist lifestyle requires a lot of moral support.

Every once in a while a ray of light pokes through however. A good thought provoking post emerges to make coming here worthwhile.


yea. all i see on this board when it comes to talk about peak oil is mainly the doomers wishing for it all to collapse in a day or how they expect it to go into complete anarchy in a very short amount of time. they never look at how past civilizations died, the maya collapsed in 3 or four life times while rome took a lot longer. i lean on the maya side for this. stuff will collapse but natural disasters like a meteor strike, the super volcano under yellow stone erupting and even nuclear war aside. it will take maybe a 100 years or so.
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Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 20:28:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')t all to collapse in a day


Too much t.v.? :-D

I do think it will happen faster than 3 or 4 life times. It will be long, hard and pretty painful, at least for some of us. Soon a lot of us will not have as much as we used to, some of us will have a hell of a lot less as the economy tanks.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 21:52:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') don't find violence acceptable and I refuse to support the idea of it. It is not inevitable.


I agree with Ludi. Although I like guns, and I don't wish to deny anyone the right to own them, I think daydreaming about shooting people is neurotic and a waste of time. If a severe breakdown were to occur, we would immediately shift to a wartime footing, and the last thing you want to be in the middle of wartime is a self-centered hoarder trying to protect your shit with a gun. Your first duty, as in any war or disaster, is to pitch in and help. I don't want to share my foxhole with a pussy who's only thinking about #1.
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Unread postby bart » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 22:06:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'N')ow, I haven’t read much of the "literature" regarding shipwrecks, etc.

I've found it very helpful to read the material on survival written by the military, outdoor leadership people or other knowledgeable individuals. The concepts are very different from survivalism.

The people who survive and the leaders who do well in survival situations are not the macho authoritarian types, nor are they necessarily the ones who have the most technical skills.

From Survivor by Michael Greenwald (about survival after shipwreck)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Food, water, a good survival pack are all important to the shipwrecked castaway. Of even greater importance is cooperation, the will to live, and an aggressive attitude about survival. (p. 53)

When groups of people are subjected to physical hardship and chronic stress, psychologists have learned that those most likely to survive adopt a positive strategy and avoid depressing thoughts about the future. They concentrate on being as safe and comfortable as possible for the moment. Their attitude seems to be "I'm ok now, and maybe things will get better later." (p.279)

Never create doubt or agree with anyone who has negative comments such as: "we're all doomed," "that ship was our last chance," "it will never rain," "the sharks will get us all." Try to turn these gloomy comments aside with a joke if possible: 'you're too bony for the sharks to eat." (p.279-80)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'F')urther, hyper-individualism is not a product of the last few decades...

By hyper-individualism, I mean, an inability to work with groups. It has nothing to do with self-reliance or skills. By this definition, hyper-individualism IS a product of the last few decades, a product of alienation and suburbia.

In previous eras, anybody who thought they could/should survive by themselves or in nuclear families would be judged as literally insane. In some traditional societies, being kicked out of the group was seen as a death sentence.

Throughout history the extended family has been the basis of peasant culture. Look at those patterns of successful low-technology living: the Amish, hunter gatherer tribes, Cuba, pioneer families. They all realized the survival value of being able to work together.

The problem with survivalism is not that it is concerned with self-reliance -- self-reliant skills are all to the good. The problem is its paranoia and inflexibility, its inability to work with groups. Survivalism sees survival only in terms of short-term dangers and physical deprivation. It has a readymade solution (guns and storage bins) which will not be enough to survive in the most likely future.

The main problems in the PO future, I think, will be economic and political. The main solutions will be organization and vision.

I know you define "survivalism" differently than is usual, and I tend to agree with your point of view about learning self-reliance skills.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')f a severe breakdown were to occur, we would immediately shift to a wartime footing, and the last thing you want to be in the middle of wartime is a self-centered hoarder trying to protect your shit with a gun. Your first duty, as in any war or disaster, is to pitch in and help.

Yes! Well put, JD.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 22:20:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', 'I')n previous eras, anybody who thought they could/should survive by themselves or in nuclear families would be judged as literally insane.


The records of the Donner Party are a good case study. I don't have time to provide a link today, but it was the single men without families who were most likely to die.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 22:31:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', 'S')hould we only portray this site as a bunch of panzy...


NevadaGhosts, you're trying to represent yourself as the macho end of the spectrum here, but I think you fear death too much to be a real stud.
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Unread postby Malthus » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 22:38:51

Do you mean these guys JD?

http://members.aol.com/DanMRosen/donner/
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Unread postby trespam » Fri 11 Mar 2005, 23:08:18

I agree with John Denver on this one. If our worse nightmare occurs, then more power to the government and the national guard, more power to wartime planning, more power to civil order.
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Unread postby k_semler » Sat 12 Mar 2005, 01:37:26

I would prefer that the government actually obide by and respect the constitution, and everything it stands for instead of grinding on it with thier shit-stained boots that have trampled so many freedoms already.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 12 Mar 2005, 02:05:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', 'I') would prefer that the government actually obide by and respect the constitution, and everything it stands for instead of grinding on it with thier shit-stained boots that have trampled so many freedoms already.
I'm with you all the way on this. The asset forfeiture scam needs to stop for one thing.
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Unread postby eastbay » Sat 12 Mar 2005, 02:08:19

An economic journey from where the USA/Europe/Japan/Singapore... etc are today all the way down to about zero over a 100 year span would be considered a very, very fast economic collapse by just about all historical measures.

100 years. Five generations. And that's thought to be the 'slow' ride. It will certainly be somewhat quicker than that.

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