[lowem]

How's that for roll-over :

[killJOY]

As a volunteer firefighter/EMT in a small town, I can testify to the fact that SUVs roll more frequently than cars. My experience is by no means a scientific sampling, but it adds to the debate.

When I first started volunteering, I was simply amazed at the number of rollovers that were being toned out and the fact that most involved SUVs. You have to consider, though, that as SUVs make up a significant portion of autos on the road, naturally they're going to take up a higher percentage of crashes. It does make you think, though.

Laws of physics are apparently not on people's minds: the larger the vehicle, the more momentum (inertia) it has and the longer the skid marks are going to be....

[Roy]

I'll add my 2¢ worth on this issue. I have always been an auto enthusiast and have spent a majority of my life studying, driving, building, modifying, racing, and just being around all types of motorized vehicles . Of course the whole realization of Peak Oil has prompted me to change my interests to something more sustainable. That said, I just couldn't leave this thread well-enough alone.

First of all, there are two main designs of SUV: the full frame types (based on pickup trucks) such as the Suburban, Expedition, Yukon, Blazer, Explorer (up till the 04 model), Montero, Trooper, et al.

And the unibody types which are similar (and based on) in design to modern autos: like the Ford Escape, Lexus RX series (Camry), Highlander (Camry), RAV4 (corrola), CRV (civic), MDX (Odyssey/Acccord), BMWs (3 series/5 series), Mercedes, etc. These tend to be lower to the ground and handle more like cars than their full framed brethren due to their car based suspensions.

Full frame SUV's are "safer" than cars only when they collide with a car. Then what gives the SUV the "safety advantage" is its full frame construction which, being a dated design intended for hauling heavy loads and towing, doesn't tend to absorb much energy from impacts. In the case of the truck-based SUV hitting a car, the impact energy is transferred to the car for the most part. Cars, like unibody SUVs have crush zones which are by design, inteneded to absorb the energy from impacts, and to transfer minimal amounts of energy to the passenger compartment. Thus, truck framed SUVS with their high mounted bumpers tend to rip through cars. The occupant of the car in an SUV/car accident is many more times likely to die than the SUV driver for this reason.

When SUVs collide or when one impacts a fixed object, the impact energy is transferred to the occupants of the SUV. Bad in most cases, at least when compared to similar accidents involving a car with the fixed object.

Another inherent disadvantage to SUVs (of which there are many) is their high center of gravity and their antique suspension designs. Modern SUVs have unit body construction and independent suspensions like the cars they're based on.

Full frame SUVs however, differ little in their suspension designs from a 1960's American car. Full frame, solid rear axle and leaf springs.

Combine the high center of gravity and the antiquated design and you have a serious rollover potential. Which is easily observed.

The high bumpers also tend to defeat the side impact protection built into modern cars because the bumpers on most SUVs are level with the side windows on most cars. Bad news for the car occupant, every time.

The car companies are using deceitful marketing practices to turn these behemoths into a status symbol. Not unlike the marketing practices used by Big Tobacco in the 50's. IE promoting a product as beneficial that they know is anything but. Their motivation, like every corporation, is pure profit. The truck based SUV, the most popular type, is also the most profitable vehicle type on the lot of every manufacturer.

That's the bottom line here IMO. The SUV craze is purely marketing hype generated by the Big 3 (and later cashed in on by the Japanese and European mfgrs) to help their sagging bottom lines. The American mfgrs couldn't compete with the imports in the car arena, so they created their own niche in a stroke of marketing genius. Forced the foreign competition to scramble to design their own full sized pickups and SUVs. Now Toyota, Nissan, and even Honda(no pickup yet) are producing SUVs and full sized pickups exclusively for the American market. Even Porsche and BMW make an SUVs (oh the horror!!('8O')) The automotive purist in me gags whenever I see these abominations!


I pray that high fuel prices will ultimately reduce the number of these things on the road, as they pose a danger to everyone driving any type of car, disproportionate to their weight due to their outdated designs.

My own personal observation is that most of these vehicles seem to be driven agressively. I often wonder if "Type A" personalities are attracted to large SUVs so they can intimidate other drivers out of their way. Nary a mile goes by in my daily commute when I look in my rearview mirror and see nothing but headlights and grille from a huge SUV right on my bumper.

Another soccer-mom driving her Suburban as if it was the Accord/Camry she traded for it.

I think SUVs can be safe if they are driven within their limitations. Most SUV owners don't seem to be aware of those and drive far too aggresively in them. I see many going down the interstate here approaching triple digit speeds, following each other less than one carlength apart! 2-second rule? We don't need no steenkin' two seconds rule! Insanity.

Thanks for reading my humble attempt at simplifying this issue.

Roy in blissfully ignorant south Louisiana. Where full sized SUVs and pickups make up at least half the total vehicles on the road.

[Specop_007]

Ahh, once again we selectively look at statistics to back up our claim.

So tell me this. What percentage of car drivers wear seatbelts vs SUV drivers. I assure you in an SUV vs car collision the car is all but fucked everytime. The SUV has a huge weight advantage (generally, barring those damned old Lincolns and Cadillacs) as well as structural rigidity advantages (Again, generally, depending on the frame construction).
So, why are more people dying? Rollovers. Simple. Not that the SUV is less safe, but when you dont wear your seatbelt it doesnt matter WHAT your driving you odds are sufficiently less in surviving.
Its that simple. Even a tank driver has a seatbelt. Wonder why? Even a steel cage wont safe your life if your bouncing around in it.

So to the rollover. Why dont semi's roll over? Hell, if we simply base our "Big vehicle rollover" theory to all cars then by that standard semi's would be the most unsafe vehicle ever made right?
Its all in the driver. I've driven grain trucks, combines, truck's and suv's for hell, decades, and with zero problems (Well, of the rollover variety). I also wear my seatbelt. So, what are my odds? Probably pretty good. I know how to drive and use the built in safety restraints.

[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o to the rollover. Why dont semi's roll over? Hell, if we simply base our "Big vehicle rollover" theory to all cars then by that standard semi's would be the most unsafe vehicle ever made right?

[Grimnir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot that the SUV is less safe, but when you dont wear your seatbelt it doesnt matter WHAT your driving you odds are sufficiently less in surviving.

[Yossarian]

Lets remember, most accidents are single vehicle accidents. We all like to think that we are the best driver out there, but tend to ignore our own flaws. Like PO

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd it's not about seatbelts, it's about roof collapse in SUV rollover cases. Ironically enough, the Federal standards for roof strength are significantly higher for cars which have very small rollover potential than they are for high CoG rollover-prone SUVs. Whether you wear a seatbelt or not if your truck rolls over and your roof collapses, your hosed!

[ECM]

SUV safety

There is a video about SUV safety at the above link.

[Yossarian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')However you have to account for the fact that SUV's are mostly used in rural area's while sedans are more common in the urbanized area's.

[gg3]

The term SUV is a glaring oxymoron at the level of "gourmet MREs."

A sports car is light, nimble, responsive; it sticks to the road like a magnet, hugs corners like they're old friends, accelerates like a basketball in flight, and responds to the brakes like a ballet dancer leaping to a pinpoint on the stage.

A utility vehicle is a truck for hauling goods; it's ponderous and deliberate, with lots of cargo space for bulky and/or heavy rectangular objects, an insatiable appetite for bricks, cinderblocks, bales of hay, plywood, dimensional timber, sacks of grain or freshly-bagged ducks; its muscle is that of the construction worker who can carry steel beams on broad shoulders and hold them aloft in one hand with seeming effortlessness.

An SUV is neither, but rather a shadow of each like ghosts trapped in a cage made of overstatement. An exaggerated caricature of the cab of a tractor-trailer outfitted for a playboy. A creature of animated cartoons where gravity and inertia appear optional, but the kids who watch and try it themselves appear at the emergency room. It uses energy to project an image, but the substance is lacking.

It appears big and brash, but if a vehicle had a soul, its would be a spirit of sadness and trapped purpose, like someone with the body of a potential athlete who was confined to a desk in a cubicle. It almost deserves compassion, but like an endangered mountain lion lurking near a school, compassion for something that can harm you or your kids is at best dangerous and at worst foolhardy. It would be cruel to put it out of its misery, much kinder for it to not have been born, and perhaps best to be put in a zoo (or an auto museum) or somewhere far away, where it can live out its years without being such a manifest hazard.

It, itself, is not to blame for its paradoxical existence. It is a creation of specific individual humans, and those humans should have learned to think before they turned it loose in a world where it has nothing, really, to do.

[Specop_007]

gg3, we obviously have completely opposite views of SUV's.....

[chris-h]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', '[')b]Are SUV's actually safer than cars?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ational Highway Traffic Safety Administration figures show gap in safety between sport utility vehicles and passenger cars last year was widest yet recorded; find people driving or riding in sport utility vehicle in 2003 were nearly 11 percent more likely to die in accident the people in cars; says crash fatalities declined across board in 2003 to lowest levels in six years, with 42,643 people killed in traffic accidents in US; Ward's AutoInfoBank says SUV's accounted for 27.2 percent of all light-duty vehicles in first seven months of 2004, up from 26 percent in period year earlier.

[MarkR]

Not sure if this is supposed to be a joke or not, but here's a site extolling the dangers of SUVs

Webpage Title

[SF_ENGINEER]

this is the best news i've read all week: Link

[SD_Scott]

HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAA

[BabyPeanut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Unfortunately for GM and Ford, there are lot of exciting products right now out there in the marketplace," he said.

[mgibbons19]

Sweet! Time to go shopping.

[Sys1]

Die SUV ! Die Pick up !
Peak oil brings not only bad news

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sys1', 'D')ie SUV! Die Pick up! Peak oil brings not only bad news