This is a great documetry explaining why the EV "failed" in the US.
EV and GM
PeakOil is You
"Who killed the Electric Car?" Thread
A must see documentary on the Electric Car
by shakespear1 » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 07:50:57
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by hope_full » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 08:32:29
I do not understand the big brouhaha over the Chevy Volt because GM *had* this technology ten years ago and threw it away with both hands.
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by dukey » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 10:19:23
they threw it away because gas was so cheap
really what was the point ?
plus the batteries for the cars were super expensive and had limited life, the same as today really.
really what was the point ?
plus the batteries for the cars were super expensive and had limited life, the same as today really.
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by shakespear1 » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 10:47:50
Something tells me that it will be easier to get the batteries than oil in the near future 
,
even if they are expensive.
,
even if they are expensive.
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by 3aidlillahi » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 11:36:54
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hope_full', 'I') do not understand the big brouhaha over the Chevy Volt because GM *had* this technology ten years ago and threw it away with both hands.
At least according to Wikipedia, the EV1 got 160 miles on a "tank" for ≈$40,000 for the EV1. The Chevy Volt is only 40 miles for the same cost (in nominal dollars, not constant dollars). They didn't have this technology, they had better tech! 10 years later and we get less range? Good job, Big Three. Same type of progress as going from compacts to Hummers and trucks
Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by dukey » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 13:15:53
if there was a market for electric cars
some car manufacturer in the world would be making them
people have tried in the past. In the past there was never any point because gas was cheap.
the bottom line is the battery technology
what happens if you need to drive 200 miles in 1 day ? What you gonna do, buy a second car for everytime you need to travel a long distance ? There's also other major problems with electric cars. Loads of people don't have garages, park on the street, what you going to have an electric cable out to your car in the street ? Is this really viable ? What happens when the battery ages and you car can't go as far ?
some car manufacturer in the world would be making them
people have tried in the past. In the past there was never any point because gas was cheap.
the bottom line is the battery technology
what happens if you need to drive 200 miles in 1 day ? What you gonna do, buy a second car for everytime you need to travel a long distance ? There's also other major problems with electric cars. Loads of people don't have garages, park on the street, what you going to have an electric cable out to your car in the street ? Is this really viable ? What happens when the battery ages and you car can't go as far ?
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by shakespear1 » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:12:56
What if you do need to drive 200 miles?
This is where years of development could have probably come up with the answer. They will certainly need to do it NOW !!!
This is where years of development could have probably come up with the answer. They will certainly need to do it NOW !!!
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
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Re: A must see documentary on the Electric Car
by shakespear1 » Sat 28 Jun 2008, 03:19:15
I wonder if this was ever considered: Make the battery interchangeable and standardized in size ( like AAA, AA etc system). This way the traveler could drop into a gas station and change out his battery and go on. The station could then do maintenance/recharging on the battery.
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Alan Greenspan
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Re: A must see documentry on the Electric Car
by The_Toecutter » Wed 09 Jul 2008, 13:00:31
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 't')hey threw it away because gas was so cheap
really what was the point ?
plus the batteries for the cars were super expensive and had limited life, the same as today really.
really what was the point ?
plus the batteries for the cars were super expensive and had limited life, the same as today really.
The NiMH batteries used in the GM EV1 had no less life than an internal combustion engine. The Toyota RAV4 EVs using an upgraded version of the EV1's battery can see roughly 150,000 miles on the odometer with the original battery pack with no range or performance loss yet. The shelf life is at least 11 years so far.
Mass production of the cars and battery packs would yield $225/kWh according to UC Davis, and a study by Cuenca and Gaines titled "Evaluation of Electric Vehicle Production and Operating Costs" has two charts comparing the operating cost of a mass produced EV and comparable gasoline car in cost per mile; a NiMH EV breaks even at about $1.30/gallon gas factoring in periodic battery pack replacement, if everything is mass produced.
Thanks to Chevron, this battery is unavailable.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'i')f there was a market for electric cars
some car manufacturer in the world would be making them
people have tried in the past. In the past there was never any point because gas was cheap.
The market for electric cars is extremely large and untapped.
In California alone during the 1990s, repeated market studies have found an immediate market for hundreds of thousands of EVs a year, and that's if they had a mere 80 miles range and comparable cost to gasoline cars(easily doable with lead acid batteries!).
The situation is a bit more complicated than you might think. The market for electric cars is IF they are comparably priced to gasoline ones. The only way that will ever happen is if electric cars see the same production volume as gasoline ones. The major automakers so far seem unwilling to do this(Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi might change this in the near future), but the small automakers who see this market do not have the economic means to meet all the regulations lobbied into place by big automakers(to kill competition) and get their products mass produced. To mass produce a car and have every aspect of road-worthiness tested and refined to meet government stanards takes approxamately $400 million, and no less than $200 million.
This is why Tesla Motors builds a $100,000 Roadster that does 0-60 mph in 4 seconds. They know people will not pay $100,000 for a midsize sedan that does 0-60 mph in 8 seconds, even though if they had mass production capability, such a car could be made for under $30,000.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he bottom line is the battery technology
what happens if you need to drive 200 miles in 1 day ? What you gonna do, buy a second car for everytime you need to travel a long distance ? There's also other major problems with electric cars. Loads of people don't have garages, park on the street, what you going to have an electric cable out to your car in the street ? Is this really viable ? What happens when the battery ages and you car can't go as far ?
The "200 miles range" limitation is usually on cars with no concessions to aerodynamic efficiency over the current cars available on the market.
The Solectria Sunrise was a sedan that could seat 5 people, had the interior space of a Ford Taurus, and got 373 miles range during a Tour De Sol Rally in 1997. It used a 30 kWh NiMH battery pack.
The Tesla Roadster, a cramped sports car, has about half the passenger/storage space as the Sunrise, gets about 60% of the range of the Sunrise, and has a battery pack that is about 60% larger than that of the Sunrise.
Compare:
Car: Sunrise/Roadster
Battery Size: 30 kWh/50 kWh
Battery Specific Capacity: 60 Wh per kg/140 Wh per kg
Range: 373 miles/250 miles
Replace the Sunrise's NiMH pack with an equivalent weight in yesterday's 140 Wh/kg lithium ion battery, and a 900 mile range becomes possible. Some Li Poly on the market today are 200 Wh/kg, making a 1200 mile range possible.
Is that still not enough? Charge time wouldn't even be a factor with range that high; stop at a hotel after 20 hours of driving(including breaks and what not), and you're ready to drive again all next day when you wake up in the morning.
If I ever get a 60 kWh pack of Kokam Lithium Polymer(200 Wh/kg), I could have an electric Triumph GT6 that weighed less than the gasoline one, and got roughly 600 miles per charge at 70 mph with aerodynamic tweaks. That's even viable range for driving around remote parts of Texas; someone could almost get from Dallas to El Paso on a single charge.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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