[Terrapin]

Malcomatic_51, It seems that you missed that in this case “the electric car” refers to the EV1. A GM project that indeed broke many people’s hearts when it was discontinued and all the cars were repossessed and destroyed. Many of these people had driving needs as you describe (short trips in town) that were well suited to electric cars.

[greenworm]

Give me one, I'll take one. If I don't have to pay big oil a dime, then sign me up!!! <----That my friend, is DEMAND.

[Graeme]

WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ynopsis
It was among the fastest, most efficient production cars ever built. It ran on electricity, produced no emissions and catapulted American technology to the forefront of the automotive industry. The lucky few who drove it never wanted to give it up. So why did General Motors crush its fleet of EV1 electric vehicles in the Arizona desert?
WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR? chronicles the life and mysterious
death of the GM EV1, examining its cultural and economic ripple
effects and how they reverberated through the halls of government
and big business.
The year is 1990. California is in a pollution crisis. Smog threatens
public health. Desperate for a solution, the California Air Resources
Board (CARB) targets the source of its problem: auto exhaust.
Inspired by a recent announcement from General Motors about an
electric vehicle prototype, the Zero Emissions Mandate (ZEV) is born.
It required 2% of new vehicles sold in California to be emission-free by 1998, 10% by 2003. It is the most radical smog-fighting mandate since the catalytic converter.
With a jump on the competition thanks to its speed-record-breaking
electric concept car, GM launches its EV1 electric vehicle in 1996. It
was a revolutionary modern car, requiring no gas, no oil changes, no mufflers, and rare brake maintenance (a billion-dollar industry unto itself). A typical maintenance checkup for the EV1 consisted of
replenishing the windshield washer fluid and a tire rotation.
But the fanfare surrounding the EV1’s launch disappeared and the cars followed. Was it lack of consumer demand as carmakers claimed, or were other persuasive forces at work?
Fast forward to 6 years later... The fleet is gone. EV charging stations dot the California landscape like tombstones, collecting dust and spider webs. How could this happen? Did anyone bother to examine the evidence? Yes, in fact, someone did. And it was murder.

[Mesuge]

Yes, this movie has been around for some time, still waiting for screening in my location/DVDs/or torrents..

It's quite funny, that most of the americans will learn about their best car which has been already scrapped from the movies..

[Revi]

GM didn't want to produce an electric car because they didn't want to continue as a car company. They want to die so that they can dump their pensions. Chrysler/Dodge has gemcars, so they might live. More likely is that some other companies will produce electric cars. Do buggy makers dominate the car market now? They will die, and that's ok. Adapt or die. I think a car company that names their cars after natural disasters (the avalanche) will be a memory like the Studabaker and the Pierce Arrow in a few years.

With the battery technology they have now, and lighter materials we could have an electric car that is far better than anything the big 3 could come up with. It'll come from India or China. Lithium Ion batteries, a 200 mile range, recharge with solar and who will need a gasoline car soon. I saw a promotion for a Ford F-150 in the paper. No payments for a year, a $2000 gas card and $2000 off the price. Are they desperate or what? Who wants these things? The gasoline car may make it to mid-century, but I doubt it.

[mefistofeles]

There is a new movie out by Sony Pictures Classics called Who Killed the Electric Car . So I guess the real question is this: why did GM pull the plug on this program after spending a billion dollars?

Did it threaten SUV sales or was it simply unprofitable? The film argues there is a conspiracy. I'm inclined to believethat there the program didn't have the potential to profitable (at least as far as GM's beancounters were concerned).

[Mesuge]

Pls. use search function all aspects (political, technical, infrustructural) are covered in great detail by Toecutter, myself among others..

Quick summary:

- What billion dollars? The project itself was much cheaper they inflated that final number by some admin tricks like buying one division from the other etc.

- the auto industry has vast investments buried in the fossil oriented infrustructure so they can't turn on a dime

- the cost of EV consists of 2/3 of components outside the traditional auto industry structure they have no power over

- so there is no profit to be made on electric cars since they also last longer, no repairs/replacement to traction system needed

- political climate changed - zero emission mandate has been firstly changed and than finally challenged and killed in courts by the bushevik oily juntamans


=> it's too late to implement EVs now anyway it would be too much energy wasted to change the fleet we don't have that energy..

Much better approach is support public transport, small EVs like bicycles, scooters which are 10-100x more efficient than cars etc..

--

I think in the end it will be easier for the US just nuke out some of the most populous oil producing regions - that's the current plan..

Additional plan is to use some bioweapons like more efficient strand of HIV/AIDS (which failed to curb the population explosion so far) or completely new stuff in this department like "birdflue" influenza with direct human-human transmission capability etc..

[linlithgowoil]

i think the best explanation for us not having electric cars is that car companies use the easiest and cheapest option that gets the best results.

why would a car company make an electric car when there was plentiful and cheap petrol? its totally foolish, and they'd go bust.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 'i') think the best explanation for us not having electric cars is that car companies use the easiest and cheapest option that gets the best results.

why would a car company make an electric car when there was plentiful and cheap petrol? its totally foolish, and they'd go bust.

[NeoPeasant]

Didn't most of the electric car programs occur in Arizona and Southern California to hide how badly the battery systems sucked in cold weather? Not saying it's true, it's just what I heard.

Maybe it was another p word not on the list. Practicality, or rather the lack of it.

[Snowrunner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', 'D')idn't most of the electric car programs occur in Arizona and Southern California to hide how badly the battery systems sucked in cold weather? Not saying it's true, it's just what I heard.

Maybe it was another p word not on the list. Practicality, or rather the lack of it.

[small_steps]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', 'A')lso, I am sure that if someone would really LOOK at the problem they would find ways to actually come up with an alternate battery that would be less damaged by cold, but there is no incentive for it right now.

[Snowrunner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('small_steps', 'N')o incentive for it, good god! A good battery that provides significant energy storage, talk to the folks in the transportation industry, energy storage is one of the holy grails, many are working and damned near crawling out of their skin trying to get the things more reliable, etc.

linlithgowoil has it correct, use the best available technology, oil is, and will be for a VERY long time to com. Unpleasantly, this most precious resource will be available in ever decreasing quantities in the very near future.

[Speed]

When I spied an silver EV-1 parked in Santa Monica last week, I ran over and just stood there and stared at it for a long time. This was one of the most interesting cars of our time. And that particular car, like the few remaining EV-1s you might be lucky enough to see on the road today, is a rogue car - the owner hasn't turned it in from its lease agreement. GM has ordered them all back. Why? A conspiracy? No. Its fire. Many of their electrical systems seem to overheat in serveral key areas.

Another interesting thing to remember about the EV-1 is they are the most expensive cars every produced in mass - more expensive then the $550,000 Porsche GT or the 400,000 Ferrari F1. The entire cost of the production averages out to about $1,000,000 per car. But the EV-1 did what it was designed to do. That is, paint GM green. You see GM never had any green car plans. That is crystal clear today - the word "bankruptcy" is being whispered in the motor city because GM is stuck selling SUVs in a four dollar oil world.

Another key weakness revealed by the EV-1 is the battery. The EV-1 had a much shorter range than it originally advertised and not a few owners found themselves creeping along the side of the highway to get home. Double that for charging time as well as the lifetime of the battery. Today, the best green car we have is certainly the Toyota Prius, but it too burns up batteries every two years or less.

So today, while many still believe the EV-1 was simply another quashed solution to the car/energy/pollution problem, it is far more. It reveals that the solution, and we need a solution soon, will have to be considerably more than simply applying hybrid drive systems to the standard run-of-the-mill sedan.

[Mesuge]

Speed> please stop with that troll like - ill informed propaganda..
This site is full of details on the EV-1 project so don't ridicule yourself here.. Use search function in case you are just one misinformed fellow..

The car has no technical problems after some innital glitches which have been taken over in later generations. The Ovonics NiMh batteries were working as advertised, dependably..

There were waiting list for the EV-1. Read the first hand accounts of former happy owners..

The cost you mentioned is nonsence. Since the EV-1 was not produced on regular assembly line but in a tiny shop, also GM purposely accelerated the return on investment cost so its "purchase cost" was set artificially higher in comparison to their regular fleet..

The electric car won't save the day now - it's just too late to implement them and it is only a car afterall. Although with overall 30% efficiency in comparison to tragic 15% of ICEs and less than 2/3 emissions but still a car which is not the best transportation solution developed by mankind..

[Terrapin]

Really Speed, put up some links or stop making stuff up.

See also: http://peakoil.com/fortopic20511.html

[LadyRuby]

I saw a preview for this movie recently, it looks good.

[sch_peakoiler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Speed', 'T')oday, the best green car we have is certainly the Toyota Prius, but it too burns up batteries every two years or less.

[Terrapin]

Speed needs to slow down and check his facts.

Hybrid batteries in US cars are warranted for 8-10 years depending upon model and state. According to what I read on the hybrid forums, neither Honda nor Toyota (who have been making them the longest) has replaced many, and their owners tend to be satisfied with them. They do however loose some of their capacity over time.

I would be interested to see something that says otherwise.

[Caoimhan]

The longevity of the Prius batteries is based around the fact that they are never fully charged nor fully discharged. They stay in the middle range of their charge level, between 40-60%. A battery that will do 300 cycles in its life from 100% to 20% (80% depth of discharge) may do 10x that with only a 60% depth of discharge, and 10x THAT if never charged to 100%.

Plug-in Priuses increase the range from top charge to bottom charge, shortening the life of the batteries.