[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', '.')...

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'H')i folks-

You know, I have only been a member of this forum for about a week. But. It really appears that people like to fight here. Is this true? It reallyseems trollish in that people don't wanna lose face so they just keep pushing rather than consider. They seem to be trying for a reaction. It's appears somewhat juvenile. There is a lot of name calling (which I might add is a luxury due to anonymity and/or distance). There appears to be little drive for dialogue. More like monologue. This looks like people just kinda taking shots at each other, talking at, or over each other. If I wanted that, I'd just get cable and watch Jerry Springer. Is this really why folks are here, to bicker, insult, try and get the last word, be clever, and witty(which admittedly I have regressed into but it leaves me feeling queasy)? So it seems that the point of discussion is nil. There is almost no courtesy or respect. The usual culprits of cheating at discourse are rampant.

I came here to participate in discussion, particularly on or about peak oil, and the effects it likely will have on all of us, and how we might deal better with it, especially after a collapse type situation. But there appears to be little to no basic foundation for actual discussion here at all. This is too bad, for these are important discussion to be having.

-punk

[pUnk]

Dear Homesteader-

Thank you for your note. I had gathered that what you address to be the case, with the board having a wide spectrum of viewpoints.

I appreciate those like you who have reached out to let me know that there are good folks here too.

Thank you.
-pUnk

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'Y')ou know, I have only been a member of this forum for about a week. But. It really appears that people like to fight here. Is this true?

[pUnk]

Some interesting reading:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... d=10278703

http://anthropik.com/2008/01/noble-or-s ... th-part-1/

http://anthropik.com/2008/01/noble-or-s ... th-part-2/

for those who may not have read 'em yet.

Thank you.

-pUnk

[btu2012]

It's really wonderful to argue with new age thinkers.

As soon as their ideas are challenged they give up and claim that they are being mistreated. Crybabies.

I mean, it doesn't really matter whether what we believe is correct or not, even when we propose a complete deconstruction of civilization. Why would we care about science (it's nothing but propaganda), academic opinion (they have no clue), evidence (it's all hand-picked), reason (it's authoritarian) or logic (it's one-dimensional). None of this matters. True freedom of thought !

[pUnk]

btu-

speaking of challenging ideas-

Why don't ya read the links I posted? I believe every argument you have posted (besides the grade-school insults ("crybabies"? good one! )) is trotted out and consequently debunked in the articles contained therein.

Anything new to add? It's awfully repetitive.....as you are so fond of saying,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Yawn."

[btu2012]

Great, you stand for your ideas !

Now let's repeat my point:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust to state this clearly, I am not arguing that primitive societies are more violent, but that on average they are about as violent as civilized ones once violence is "measured" correctly. That's well supported by anthropological data.

The source of violence is human nature, and the solution to violence is education of that nature, also known as virtue. This has little to do with the form of social organization.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'H')i folks-

You know, I have only been a member of this forum for about a week. But. It really appears that people like to fight here. Is this true? It reallyseems trollish in that people don't wanna lose face so they just keep pushing rather than consider. They seem to be trying for a reaction. It's appears somewhat juvenile. There is a lot of name calling (which I might add is a luxury due to anonymity and/or distance). There appears to be little drive for dialogue. More like monologue. This looks like people just kinda taking shots at each other, talking at, or over each other. If I wanted that, I'd just get cable and watch Jerry Springer. Is this really why folks are here, to bicker, insult, try and get the last word, be clever, and witty(which admittedly I have regressed into but it leaves me feeling queasy)? So it seems that the point of discussion is nil. There is almost no courtesy or respect. The usual culprits of cheating at discourse are rampant.

I came here to participate in discussion, particularly on or about peak oil, and the effects it likely will have on all of us, and how we might deal better with it, especially after a collapse type situation. But there appears to be little to no basic foundation for actual discussion here at all. This is too bad, for these are important discussion to be having.

-punk

[mercurygirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'H')i folks-
You know, I have only been a member of this forum for about a week. But. It really appears that people like to fight here. Is this true? It reallyseems trollish in that people don't wanna lose face so they just keep pushing rather than consider. They seem to be trying for a reaction. It's appears somewhat juvenile. There is a lot of name calling (which I might add is a luxury due to anonymity and/or distance). There appears to be little drive for dialogue. More like monologue. This looks like people just kinda taking shots at each other, talking at, or over each other. If I wanted that, I'd just get cable and watch Jerry Springer. Is this really why folks are here, to bicker, insult, try and get the last word, be clever, and witty(which admittedly I have regressed into but it leaves me feeling queasy)? So it seems that the point of discussion is nil. There is almost no courtesy or respect. The usual culprits of cheating at discourse are rampant.

I came here to participate in discussion, particularly on or about peak oil, and the effects it likely will have on all of us, and how we might deal better with it, especially after a collapse type situation. But there appears to be little to no basic foundation for actual discussion here at all. This is too bad, for these are important discussion to be having.
-punk

[btu2012]

Punk, Here are a few examples of your interventions in this thread, all of them addressed to threadbear:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'W')hoa.
Are you serious? This statement is absurd to begin with

[Elias]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elias', 'Y')ou keep ignoring what I believe are the strongest points people put to you.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elias', '"')Red herrings"?
What are you talking about? You mean questions YOUR civilized ideology can't answer.

[pUnk]

Dear btu-

You said:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow could you please present us with some arguments for your claims ?

[btu2012]

Dear punk,
What is the point which you are trying to make through those links ?
That we have two equally baseless ideologies (endless growth and primitivism) taking childish shots at each other ?

Amazing how people manage to make politics out of what ought to be a scientific question. Ah, the lack of objectivity and common sense.
Why don't you start by taking a look at your obsessive hatred of civilization, and ask yourself where that comes from. I bet that you'll discover something in your personal life explaining all that.

It's actually quite obvious from your highly emotional and hyperbolic argumentation style (what jane called "passionate" above in this thread). This is a typical symptom that a meme has taken you over --- the "passion" is a sign that you express some inner subconscious conflict through that meme. As I mentioned before, this is a standard part of the True Believer Syndrome. You are being possessed.
Btu

[pUnk]

Dear btu-
It is obviously a false assumption to suggest that I don't know why I feel the way I do.
But. I actually am aware of why I hate civilization (as defined earlier). As though hating something that enslaves every living thing it can reach, poisoning the land, air water, and food, eliminating 200 species a day is something bad to hate. I hate that I am not free. Is this bad somehow? To hate that?

Thank you for recognizing my passionate style. And for recognizing that I am not constrained to scientific jargon (argument from authority), or the written word in order to make my own conclusions based on my experience, other senses, as well as thought. Just because "experts" say something, that does not negate my intuition and further investigation.
No I'd actually like to stop taking shots at each other as I have offered a few times. And as I felt was the spirit of my last post. And as I am again attemting here.

Actually the way I see it, primitivism is not an ideology at all. It's not theory. It is proven ways to exist. There is no one way to primitivism because one bioregion is different than another. What works for the Inuit will not work for the Hopi. What the inhabitants of Easter Island did works for nobody, apparently. So you cannot have one true way to live as a human in "tribal" life. Diversity is critical. Natural law is the only law, and whether one is tribal or civilized, to ignore this law is suicide (as we see in both cases). But civilization destroys diversity. Civilization seeks to eliminate diversity. Civilization presents one way to live only. "If your not with us you're against us". It ignores natural law and creates it's own abstract, written laws. I am in favor of natural law. And yes, I realize that I am not prepared for that - that I'd probably not survive if it smehow happened intantaneoulsy right now. But. I am not the most important thing to consider. I believe in the land-base. Now if somehow people wanna construe that as care bears and rainbows....well... I guess there's probably no talking to people like that. But, I don't see how one can argue that clean air, water, food, and land are not primary. And while the civilized may believe that they don't think those are secondary, the actions prove otherwise. When every body of water is polluted, when every mothers breastmilk contains dioxin, when a place gets recognized for having better air quality than most, the actions prove otherwise.

The points of those links were to show that virtually all the arguments that have been presented against primitivism in this thread, are standard, status quo, system serving, cliche. And it's my opinion that Jason Godeski does a nice job of taking them, one by one, and demystifying them, while citing many other sources as well.

I think the fallacy really is that somehow, folks who are identified with civilization are unable to understand that there cannot be a single way of life that one could construe as an ideological method called "primitivism".
But it seems all that those who are somehow offended by the very notion of primitivism, are also somehow hearing that the primitivist view is some utopian view of pacifistic bliss.

But. I must insist. Compared with constant genocide, and ecocide, (which is created by the constant importation of "resources" to maintain cities), mass exploitation..... I think I'd rather have a healthy landbase......planet wide.
The thing about my hate, is that it's not repressed. I am all too aware of where it comes from. Any system that enslaves not only anything it views as a resource (which includes me and my loved ones)is my enemy. Period.

I guess this is my last attempt at continuing any sort of dialogue with you. I think that I have adequately proven that I can be just as much a jerk as anyone - I rose to the bait( which shows I have some maturing to do). But I also feel that I have demonstrated another "style" that is more productive too. I prefer the ladder. If you continue to respond rudely please don't feel badly if you are ignored from here on out.
Thank you.
pUnk

[threadbear]

Punk--You're young, aren't you?

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'S')ome interesting reading:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... d=10278703
http://anthropik.com/2008/01/noble-or-s ... th-part-1/
http://anthropik.com/2008/01/noble-or-s ... th-part-2/
for those who may not have read 'em yet.
Thank you.
-pUnk

[BO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'A')nd another great example:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BO', 'D')aniel Quinn explains your thinking quite well, you have "Mother Culture" whispering in your ear about how horrible it was to be a "primitive" person and how wonderful civilization is.

[btu2012]

Really pUnk, you don't have enough rational basis for your beliefs. Ain't it a tad extreme to embrace an ideology on such a controversial basis ?