[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'T')he most rudimentary study of history shows that no civilization (we know of) is sustainable.
As a matter of fact, no species has endured the test of time.
Much less mere groups.
I'm just wondering if I have enough info to determine, (as you seem to have done), that "civilization" is required to produce interesting or beautiful stuff.
Of course proving a negative is impossible as you mentioned, & it's not exactly fair for me to posit that argument. On the other hand, how else to express my suspicion that art can, and does exist absent the benefits of the modern world?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jane', 'O')k, well I am happy with the responses to my post! I always take a couple of days to watch where it goes and pick up after getting the running them.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')men. People also falsely conclude that all tribal societies are somehow more "in balance". This is just plain funny. Some tribal societies are just as psycho and out of whack, in their own way, as we are, with our perpetual growth paradigm. The role of superstition, scapegoating, sorcery, etc... is part of the spiritual milieu of many of these cultures, and does indeed help keep population in control, through family and tribal conflicts.
As Aaron asked, isn't there some other way, some kind of middle ground?

[pUnk]

threadbear wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ead up on the Yanomamo:
"Violence among the Yanomamo is often domestic, with women commonly beaten by their husbands in disputes. The violence is seen as an act of love by the women, however. Women will shave their head after a beating to show off their bumps. They will even put a red dusting on the bump showing it off even further."

I rest my case. I think that this is probably more typical of ancient tribal cultures, than any other way of life. The idea that all primitive tribes did things that made sense, within the context of their culture is craven nonsense. Many primitives didn't, and many of them likely died out as a result. There is no reason to expect that regressing to a tribal form will return us to a state of grace. Also a lot of inbreeding which, over time, results in a lot of mental retardation.
Return to an actual primitive state, like our forebears? No thanks."

[threadbear]

Punk, I'm not defending civilization. Consumerism and many of the other isms that tie us together are "craven nonsense" too. I just don't believe in a golden age of primitive tribalism, where a perfect balance was maintained, people were loving and lived in paradise where they had time to polish their skills as wise noble savages. What tosh. There never was a golden age, unless you think roving bands of wife-beating cannibals qualifies.

You are enamored of something you know nothing about. NOTHING.

[pUnk]

threadbear-

I cannot seem to find where anyone on this thread said anything about $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'g')olden age of primitive tribalism, where a perfect balance was maintained, people were loving and lived in paradise where they had time to polish their skills as wise noble savages.

[threadbear]

Punk, I didn't dismiss ALL tribal primitives. I was careful to qualify what I was saying. People are people and as such are subject to the seven deadly sins whether they're running around naked with bones in their noses, or wearing Guccis shoes and Armani suits. We have a great deal to learn from people who live very simply , frugally and in community with others. But you're barking up the wrong tree, if you think head hunters who worship the nine eyed moon demon should be emulated.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'h')ead hunters who worship the nine eyed moon demon

[pUnk]

Dear threadbare-

Did you actually read the article you linked to? It's not a super compelling piece. Many scientists were uncertain about the claim.

What? Did you do a quick google search, find an article with the tags you were looking for, and then post it w/o bothering to read it? All the while thinking, "I rest my case?"

You should read it. It's not nasty or brutish, but it's really short. Hardly damning evidence to be sure.

But again, what's your point? Let's pretend for a moment that all primitive cultures are known to have all been dietary cannibals (a kinda huge distinction from a funeral ritual dontcha think?) So what? Even this fiction is better than what civilization is really doing right now. you say you're not defending civilization. What are you defending then?

-pUnk

ps Haha. "Tarzan wannabes". I get it. (snort) Oh yes Edgar Rice Burroughs. I was so close with my Robert E Howard guess!

[jane]

Punk, I like your style!! Very passionate about things, but dont get too worked up. I have learned that its not worth it and people will support whatever arguement they make.
Check out my "Peak Oilers who believe in guns are off track..." thread in "Planning for the Future." Funny thing is I like guns, I even said they were right to have them after hearing some of their reasons! But some just started rattling off and sending subdued insults in their posts because I opposed to having guns as a neccessity and tried to bring up points against them. Eventually after reading other peoples posts I questioned their usefulness but it was too late.

As far as cannibalism and tribal living, why do some assume that WE have to go into the worst state of being as a tribal society? like we havent advanced enough into our understanding of the world around us? And in OUR culture cannibalism is "bad" as are many aspects of tribal cultures, so does that mean:
a) we have to do that too?
b) its wrong because we say its wrong?

Too many people look through the world in their eyes because they think their way of living is right. Isnt that what this website is about, people opening their eyes and noticing the world is in a very different situation than what most believe?
I am noticing the same prejudices projected around here for thinking differently are the same these people face when telling skeptics about the Peak oil and the dangers of civilization today. How ironic?!
In the end, of what I am seeing, I am afraid we ARE all doomed and there is slim hope for the human species oil or no oil. I am noticing it goes beyond just energy resources that we have abused. We will more than likely destroy ourselves because we just cant handle each others differences, and never understand what it is to live with acceptance and tolerance. So many point their fingers and say "well its because HE does it, so I HAVE to do it too!" wow! isnt that the same type of logic that got us in this horrbile oil mess in the first place? I think the coming oil disaster and many ignoring its outcome is just part of a bigger problem that we all have.
All I can do is shrug my shoulders and say... thats human nature... I guess I am a "naive" girl...

[manu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'T')hen explain how it was accomplished for nearly two million years?

[manu]

Civilized nations can be in harmony with nature. But it is the material world where everything is temporary so death of the material body is certain and so is the death of any civilization here, good or bad. After the coming storm let's hope that there is an awakening of people's conciousness and people will be happy to live a simple life with high thinking. Simple life does not mean dirty, ignorant and backward like some people would like you to believe.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'D')ear threadbare-
Did you actually read the article you linked to? It's not a super compelling piece. Many scientists were uncertain about the claim.
What? Did you do a quick google search, find an article with the tags you were looking for, and then post it w/o bothering to read it? All the while thinking, "I rest my case?"
You should read it. It's not nasty or brutish, but it's really short. Hardly damning evidence to be sure.
But again, what's your point? Let's pretend for a moment that all primitive cultures are known to have all been dietary cannibals (a kinda huge distinction from a funeral ritual dontcha think?) So what? Even this fiction is better than what civilization is really doing right now. you say you're not defending civilization. What are you defending then?
-pUnk
ps Haha. "Tarzan wannabes". I get it. (snort) Oh yes Edgar Rice Burroughs. I was so close with my Robert E Howard guess!

[BO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')t's not that I'm pro-civilization, I'm just not pro giving up all we've learned, academically culturally and artistically, to return to what some think would be a Garden of Eden. It's true that you can't go home again, and most people wouldn't want to, if they knew what being a primitive actually entailed. Parasites, amputations without anasthetic, shamanism that manifests as sorcery and superstion, fear of being cursed, the evil eye,high infant mortality, etc..
A sharp decline in present population, permaculture, retention of the positive aspects of civilization, with respect for positive aspects of primitive cultures is realistic and something we should work toward. The idea that all of civilization is absolutely bad, is crazy, in my opinion.
As far as the article I linked to in New Scientist, I read about the study just after results came in a few years back, in the New York Times. There has been a lot of back and forth about whether the protective genes for prion disease are the results of endo or exo cannibalism, part of ritual or the end result of raiding during tribal warfare. It could be a mix of both. The Fore of New Guinea, practised endo cannibalism (eating dead relatives) in ritual, as well "exo" by procuring meat in warfare. I've read volumes about both prion disease and cannibalism.

[threadbear]

Frankly Bo, Let me state this clearly and for the record, just one more time. I'm not anti-primitive, nor completely anti-civilization. We should learn from both and try to craft new cultures incorporating what works best for all, including, most importantly, the planet.
My opinions of the perception of primitive cultures by modern culture come from my own experiences as an animist and my observations of those in the New Age community who are taking embarrassingly misguided baby steps in this area. Every body of belief, has a shadow aspect, and some in this community aren't aware of this or are aware and indulge the worst aspects of it.

At least monotheism, has at it's center the ten commandments. Though Christianity strays from that center, it tends to draw back to it, as it is a model that provides organizational structure and emphasizes compassion and empathy. That is one of the reasons, Western society has been successful. And yeah, I understand what you're saying about conquest and consumerism. That's the shadow Christianity has cast. It can be completely bloody minded.
But primitivism, animism, ultimately--would be as bad, and quite likely worse. The idea that was originally put forth was that primitive tribal life was well synchronized with nature, and achieved some kind of balance. If this was the case, early hunter gatherers wouldn't have had to pull up stakes and move on, once they had obliterated all of the game, in their locale. It only worked because there were few enough of them, that this kind of eco impact (destruction) was possible and didn't have the same kind of egregious impacts our current population is responsible for.

The rest of your post I consider ideologically naive rambling. All of the distress and high minded critique you have of Western culture is a product of a Christian culture that emphasizes fairness and egalitarianism. It's a self correcting philosophy, and we have strayed from it's central tenets, so we are looking to ways to avoid doing this in the future and part of that is looking towards the simple more spontaneous, more real and more sustainable.
Just don't forget where it all radiates from, the absolute moral structure that Christianity "imposed"

[Elias]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')e should learn from both and try to craft new cultures incorporating what works best for all, including, most importantly, the planet.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elias', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')e should learn from both and try to craft new cultures incorporating what works best for all, including, most importantly, the planet.

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BO', 'P')lease threadbear answer the question that you have been asked about 8 times now, who in this post in any way implied that tribal cultures lived in a garden of eden?

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'Y')'know, I just haven't ever heard that primitive cultures created any thing like....... mass extinction

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'Y')'know, I just haven't ever heard that primitive cultures created any thing like....... mass extinction

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pUnk', 'I')'d also be interested in where your information of$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'r')oving bands of wife-beating cannibals