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The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak Oil

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby vetusfirma » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 03:19:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '[')You can adopt whatever attitude you want toward bums. If I choose to give them food some of the time, why would you care? I don't imagine that a can of food is going to solve any problem, I just do it (I actually haven't done it in a while) because it makes me feel good.
Why would you expect me to respect your views on bumdom if you aren't going to respect mine?
Why not just say that bums are bums and if you want to give one a can of food go for it? Why must you judge me because I am not acting according to your values? I'm not judging you because you are not acting according to mine.

Raw nerve I guess. Not the intended outcome. On the other hand you can get off your sanctimonious high horse and admit that if you feed bums all you get is more bums. Many California citys have found this truth. We have too many people. They won't stop breeding. If you feed them you only get more. Yes I know the world would be a better place without me, but you will never archive inner peace with all the bums tugging at your selves asking for soup. How big of a crop of bums do you need to grow to find true happiness.

On another note, I know you didn't mean it, but to compare yourself and your actions/views with Jesus, "There is no weakness in what I am describing. I imagine that Jesus impressed people in that way."

We have been feeding the hungry in Africa for 50 years, and they are still hungry. But there are so many more of them now. We have increased the suffering, not reduced it. Yes, some people feel good about it. But what is the point, if your really just making things worse in the future. Nobody is stopping you from feeding anyone, just don't expect praise when you write about it.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 06:27:23

From TaoDeJing

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Armies are tools of violence;
They cause men to hate and fear.
The sage will not join them.
His purpose is creation;
Their purpose is destruction.

Weapons are tools of violence,
Not of the sage;
He uses them only when there is no choice,
And then calmly, and with tact,
For he finds no beauty in them.

Whoever finds beauty in weapons
Delights in the slaughter of men;
And who delights in slaughter
Cannot content himself with peace.

So slaughters must be mourned
And conquest celebrated with a funeral.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')All the world says,
"I am important;
I am separate from all the world.
I am important because I am separate,
Were I the same, I could never be important."

Yet here are three treasures
That I cherish and commend to you:
The first is compassion,
By which one finds courage.
The second is restraint,
By which one finds strength.
And the third is unimportance,
By which one finds influence.

Those who are fearless, but without compassion,
Powerful, but without restraint,
Or influential, yet important,
Cannot endure.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Compassion is the finest weapon and best defence.
If you would establish harmony,
Compassion must surround you like a fortress.

Therefore,
A good soldier does not inspire fear;
A good fighter does not display aggression;
A good conqueror does not engage in battle;
A good leader does not exercise authority.

This is the value of unimportance;
This is how to win the cooperation of others;
This to how to build the same harmony that is in nature.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')There is a saying among soldiers:
It is easier to lose a yard than take an inch.

In this manner one may deploy troops without marshalling them,
Bring weapons to bear without exposing them,
Engage the foe without invading them,
And exhaust their strength without fighting them.

There is no worse disaster than misunderstanding your enemy;
To do so endangers all of my treasures;
So when two well matched forces oppose eachother,
The general who maintains compassion will win.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 09:28:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '[')You can adopt whatever attitude you want toward bums. If I choose to give them food some of the time, why would you care? I don't imagine that a can of food is going to solve any problem, I just do it (I actually haven't done it in a while) because it makes me feel good.
Why would you expect me to respect your views on bumdom if you aren't going to respect mine?
Why not just say that bums are bums and if you want to give one a can of food go for it? Why must you judge me because I am not acting according to your values? I'm not judging you because you are not acting according to mine.

Raw nerve I guess. Not the intended outcome. On the other hand you can get off your sanctimonious high horse and admit that if you feed bums all you get is more bums. Many California citys have found this truth. We have too many people. They won't stop breeding. If you feed them you only get more. Yes I know the world would be a better place without me, but you will never archive inner peace with all the bums tugging at your selves asking for soup. How big of a crop of bums do you need to grow to find true happiness.
On another note, I know you didn't mean it, but to compare yourself and your actions/views with Jesus, "There is no weakness in what I am describing. I imagine that Jesus impressed people in that way."
We have been feeding the hungry in Africa for 50 years, and they are still hungry. But there are so many more of them now. We have increased the suffering, not reduced it. Yes, some people feel good about it. But what is the point, if your really just making things worse in the future. Nobody is stopping you from feeding anyone, just don't expect praise when you write about it.

I haven't fed a bum in years. When I did, though, it seemed more useful than giving them money, like most people do. Perhaps it would have been more useful to do nothing. You may be right.

I was really just illustrating the point that being kind to others just because it makes you feel good is an okay thing to do.

If you're going to pick a role model, I don't see anything wrong with picking Jesus.

What makes you think I am on a sanctimonious high horse? Because I am describing a rationale for being kind to others?

I am trying to understand what point you're making, but I am struggling. If you are saying that compassion has no place in your world and that works for you, then that's great; I hope you have good luck with that approach. But the point I am trying to make is that the person on the other end of an expression of compassion perhaps doesn't need to meet some test for worthiness in all cases.

As Cur said, you can look at a person whose life and mind are completely screwed up as a result of their own stupidity and/or addictions and still have compassion for them. Their poor decisions does not require that others have nothing but scorn for them.
:)
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby vetusfirma » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 15:15:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '[')You can adopt whatever attitude you want toward bums. If I choose to give them food some of the time, why would you care? I don't imagine that a can of food is going to solve any problem, I just do it (I actually haven't done it in a while) because it makes me feel good.
Why would you expect me to respect your views on bumdom if you aren't going to respect mine?
Why not just say that bums are bums and if you want to give one a can of food go for it? Why must you judge me because I am not acting according to your values? I'm not judging you because you are not acting according to mine.

Raw nerve I guess. Not the intended outcome. On the other hand you can get off your sanctimonious high horse and admit that if you feed bums all you get is more bums. Many California citys have found this truth. We have too many people. They won't stop breeding. If you feed them you only get more. Yes I know the world would be a better place without me, but you will never archive inner peace with all the bums tugging at your selves asking for soup. How big of a crop of bums do you need to grow to find true happiness.
On another note, I know you didn't mean it, but to compare yourself and your actions/views with Jesus, "There is no weakness in what I am describing. I imagine that Jesus impressed people in that way."
We have been feeding the hungry in Africa for 50 years, and they are still hungry. But there are so many more of them now. We have increased the suffering, not reduced it. Yes, some people feel good about it. But what is the point, if your really just making things worse in the future. Nobody is stopping you from feeding anyone, just don't expect praise when you write about it.

I haven't fed a bum in years. When I did, though, it seemed more useful than giving them money, like most people do. Perhaps it would have been more useful to do nothing. You may be right.
I was really just illustrating the point that being kind to others just because it makes you feel good is an okay thing to do.
If you're going to pick a role model, I don't see anything wrong with picking Jesus.
What makes you think I am on a sanctimonious high horse? Because I am describing a rationale for being kind to others?
I am trying to understand what point you're making, but I am struggling. If you are saying that compassion has no place in your world and that works for you, then that's great; I hope you have good luck with that approach. But the point I am trying to make is that the person on the other end of an expression of compassion perhaps doesn't need to meet some test for worthiness in all cases.
As Cur said, you can look at a person whose life and mind are completely screwed up as a result of their own stupidity and/or addictions and still have compassion for them. Their poor decisions does not require that others have nothing but scorn for them.

Had to look up the def of scorn, this is what i got: condemn: look down on with disdain; "He despises the people he has to work for"; "The professor scorns the students who don't catch on immediately"

You have used that twice and I need to tell you that if you felt scorned, I apologize. But unintended consequences are the point of this discussion. You view compassion as a noun, as a state of being, as happiness. Which is fine as long as you admit that it does not have the same effect on other individuals or society.
Oh, and I prefer sun tzu myself, but the successful warrior/philosophers were all reading each others works and saying about the same.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 16:09:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', 'H')ad to look up the def of scorn, this is what i got: contemn: look down on with disdain; "He despises the people he has to work for"; "The professor scorns the students who don't catch on immediately"

You have used that twice and I need to tell you that if you felt scorned, I apologize.


I didn't feel scorned, I sensed that you had scorn for certain ideas about compassion. No need to apologize. I was just questioning whether your feelings had any basis.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut unintended consequences are the point of this discussion. You view compassion as a noun, as a state of being, as happiness. Which is fine as long as you admit that it does not have the same effect on other individuals or society.


I don't view compassion as a noun. I can feel compassion, and I can also act on compassion.

I'm not sure what you mean about it not having the same effect on other individuals or society. Can you clarify that?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, and I prefer sun tzu myself, but the successful warrior/philosophers were all reading each others works and saying about the same.


I assume you mean Sun-tzu is your preference over Jesus? Sun Tzu is great; I've read and thought about The Art of War a lot and discussed some of that influence over in the "don't need a gun" thread.

I also like Lao-tzu very much. The Tao Te Ching is good, but there is another volume with the English title of "Understanding the Mysteries, Further Teachings of Lao-tzu" that is, to me, much better and far more detailed. Thomas Cleary is the translator and he has translated tons of these types of books and he is an outstanding translator/writer.

My pespective on The Art of War and strategic thinking in general is that I would prefer to simply arrange my affairs so that I don't need to do too much fighting, and if you back up your timelines far enough, this is not as hard as it sounds.

One line that I enjoy very much, and I don't remember who wrote it, is: "Be subtle to the point of formlessness." This, to me, is one of those ideas with so many facets that you can spend quite a while just walking around it and admiring it like some kind of exotic car in a showroom.

I'm not sure where we're at on compassion, but do you feel compassion or act on compassion toward others? If you do, toward whom and why?
:)
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby btu2012 » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 16:34:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'W')hat makes you think I am on a sanctimonious high horse? Because I am describing a rationale for being kind to others?


I'd guess that he assumes that all others are as devoid of compassion as he is, so they must be pretending when they act compassionate. Ergo, they must be sanctimonious hypocrites.

It's a clean logical deduction if you happen to have a deficit of compassion. The behavior of others would be hard to explain otherwise.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 27 Oct 2017, 12:33:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')I haven't fed a bum in years. When I did, though, it seemed more useful than giving them money, like most people do.

The last time I bought a bum food, he had asked me at a local restaurant. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to me, the manager had called the cops since he was asking customers for money for food, so they came and arrested him before he could eat it. *Sigh*

I nicely asked the cops if they would please let him eat the meal I had just bought him before they took him away. They declined at that time, but claimed they'd let him eat outside the station before they booked him. Since it was cold, I have my doubts if they were being honest with me. So much for that plan.

The only time I give a bum cash money, is when they're honest about it and admit what they really want it for (like liquor). I guess it's a perverse thing, but I like rewarding that at at least they're being honest with me, which seems rather rare.

I prefer to try to help the homeless by giving to a well run, local homeless charity that I've personally checked out, and have a good friend on the board who knows they're not just wasting/stealing money. (Each to their own, but I've at least given this some real thought. One thing clear to me while observing the way this place worked is that clearly the large majority of these folks have significant emotional problems and socialization problems. Clearly a giant handicap in trying to do things like get and keep a job.)

This way, I'm helping keep a roof over the head of nearly 150 people who would otherwise be homeless, helping them have access to a social worker the charity hired for counseling for things like emotional problems, staying off drugs and alcohol (they have to pass drug tests over time to stay there), help looking for work (if they have a safe, stable place to live, get cleaned up, etc. more of them have a real shot at getting some work), etc.

It's far from ideal, but at least it's not just random, or ignoring the problem.

....

For me, when I see people like that, instead of thinking badly of them, I thank the fates, destiny, "God", or whatever entity might be listening that I'm fortunate enough to have escaped being homeless -- which me being a wimp about pain and suffering, seems like about the worst fate imaginable as a long term condition.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 27 Oct 2017, 15:19:47

Outcast - I'm with you: support an organization you can trust. My favorite in Houston is the Star of Hope...a shelter for battered wives and kids. Many years ago I got out of the car and was carrying a box towards the front door. Just then an armed guard step out, gripped the butt if his revolver and gave me a hard look. Never made that mistake again. LOL. Tells you rough it can get in that neighborhood. After that let my wife haul stuff in while I stayed in the car.

Never saw this thread before. I gather it came out long before for understood the sh*t was going to hit the fan long before the unimportant date of PO showed up.
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Re: The costs, benefits, and impact of Compassion after Peak

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 28 Oct 2017, 22:04:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'O')utcast - I'm with you: support an organization you can trust. My favorite in Houston is the Star of Hope...a shelter for battered wives and kids. Many years ago I got out of the car and was carrying a box towards the front door. Just then an armed guard step out, gripped the butt if his revolver and gave me a hard look. Never made that mistake again. LOL. Tells you rough it can get in that neighborhood. After that let my wife haul stuff in while I stayed in the car.

Never saw this thread before. I gather it came out long before for understood the sh*t was going to hit the fan long before the unimportant date of PO showed up.

Wow. I've never personally been around batterers, but thinking about it, I can imagine why the guard was concerned. (I would have blithely made the same mistake, and initially even been clueless about why the guy was concerned about me -- but I'm a slow learner when it comes to common sense. LOL)

But the idea of giving to something you know seems sensible. My dad used to give a little to roughly 30 different organizations. And I suspect most of them might have been the telephone solicitation outfits that keep like 95% of your donation (which should be illegal - but that's the world we live in). I never could change his mind. When I moved into their house, I literally had to get another phone number to get much peace -- those outfits were constantly calling. Ugh.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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