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THE Gas Rationing Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 02 Jun 2008, 22:12:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'I') dont think rationing will cause the working man a problem honestly.


Oh? I am a general contractor. I have to buy as much gas as I need each day to run my business. Rationing means some days I don't work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you cut out the millions of miles driven by schools and fans to sporting events, multiple vacations, trips out of town to shop and generally stupid stuff, we would have enough fuel.

People live way above where they need to live.

I have friends who spend $500 a week going to sporting events just for their kids in high school. So there is alot of waste out there.


Enough fuel, but no jobs.

Waste? In a capitalist economy, as in nature, there is no such thing as waste.

What do you think happens to that $500 spent on sporting events? It goes to support someone's job.

This "generally stupid stuff" employs millions.

Conservation is a self-induced recession that results in higher unemployment and business failures.

Conservation and capitalsim are like oil and water; they do not mix.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby HEADER_RACK » Mon 02 Jun 2008, 22:56:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('energycity', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'R')ationing constrains and kills economic growth. It won't work

Economic growth? Nice idea but is this realistic if the world really is facing peak resources?


No it isn't realistic. Our entire system is set up on growth.You have to have growth in order to move foward. You can not have growth with declines of energy. Thats a fact. You can't gain weight by eatting less food.
Rationing kills economic growth by limiting and in most cases reducing energy imput therefore making the system contract.
Peak resources does the same thing forced contraction due to declining energy input.

I'ts a no-win situation. Whether the decline in energy is artifical (rationing)or natural (peak then decline) it eventualy leads to the same conclusion. The system is Farked!!
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby yesplease » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 00:02:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'C')onservation and capitalsim are like oil and water; they do not mix.
Except in Europe. ;)
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 00:18:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'C')onservation and capitalsim are like oil and water; they do not mix.
Except in Europe. ;)


Not. :roll:
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby yesplease » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 01:28:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'C')onservation and capitalsim are like oil and water; they do not mix.
Except in Europe. ;)


Not. :roll:
Don't tell those Europeans that. :lol:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or decades, European countries have imposed high taxes on fuel to encourage conservation and fuel-efficient technologies while funding public transportation. In England, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, the taxes on gas are more than twice as much as the underlying cost of the fuel.


The only thing noticeable about liquid fuel use in the states is that for the most part, it's use has been as wasteful as possible.
Image

To the point where newer semis, that weigh about fifteen times what the average American vehicle weighs can get ~12mpg, while the average American passenger auto gets ~17mpg.

It's not that conservation and capitalism can't mix, it's that conservation and high oil prices which are hugely profitable due to conspicuous consumption can't mix. ;)
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 02:02:42

Reduced sales or reduced economic activity (which is what conservation is) and capitalism are like oil and water; they do not mix.

I don't care how you spin it.

You just change the end use of the energy consumption as whatever you save is consumed by someone else.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby yesplease » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 02:42:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'R')educed sales or reduced economic activity (which is what conservation is) and capitalism are like oil and water; they do not mix.

I don't care how you spin it.
Say what you want, but conservation, along with other intelligent policies, have worked. That being said, economic activity alone isn't a good measure of what's best for people and advocating economic activity for it's own sake is silly to say the least. It's better for all involved, with the exception of course being those who profit the most from oil consumption, the use something efficiently.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby energycity » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 08:49:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', 'T')he Brits have had a lot of human expenditures maintaining the empire, and I think its taken a toll. I am not being disrespectful. I wish they would have kept the empire together. Would be alot different today.


The UK is short of natural resources and there are far too many of us on this crowded little island. In a different era we would have invaded (sorry "discovered") somewhere and postponed the problem for a while.

As for those pesky Americans they were getting so frisky and time-consuming we decided to let the reins lose a while but it maybe time to pull back a bit; don't want them to get ideas. :wink:
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby Hagakure_Leofman » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 09:56:51

economic growth is over.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby jlw61 » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 10:09:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'R')educed sales or reduced economic activity (which is what conservation is) and capitalism are like oil and water; they do not mix.

I don't care how you spin it.

You just change the end use of the energy consumption as whatever you save is consumed by someone else.


Sorry, but if you are going to have this argument, use the correct terms:

From the Webster dictionary.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ain Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Function: noun
Date: 1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


Capitalism has nothing to do with oil and energy and everything to do with private ownership. Capitalism was around before oil was being drilled. Capitalism was in use in the US before it was the United States. Your logic is non sequitur.

Oil was the energy slave of the industrial revolution and unless an inexpensive and plentiful substitute is found, it will also be the end of most industrial platforms.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 10:39:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', ' ')
Sorry, but if you are going to have this argument, use the correct terms:


Ok, Reduced sales or reduced economic activity (which is what conservation is) and our "current economic system" are like oil and water; they do not mix.

I don't care how you spin it.

You just change the end use of the energy consumption as whatever you save is consumed by someone else.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 10:49:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I') don't care how you spin it.
Say what you want, but conservation, along with other intelligent policies, have worked.[/quote]

Only at the micro-level. Never at the macro-level.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his might explain, for instance, why there appears to be no example of a developed society that has succeeded in combining sustained reductions in energy consumption with economic growth. Mr Alan Meier, of the IEA, referred to "several countries that, for brief periods, reduced their electricity consumption or their energy consumption"—often in response to short-term supply crises—but such reductions in demand have never been sustained. This does not mean that sustained reductions in energy consumption are impossible—simply that it is yet to be demonstrated that they are possible.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat being said, economic activity alone isn't a good measure of what's best for people and advocating economic activity for it's own sake is silly to say the least.


Who's doing that? Certainly not me. But conservation on the scale required is not a solution to our energy problem...at all, especilaay ifwe don't address overpopulation. Otherwise, it s a short-term, short-sighted, selfish fix.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's better for all involved, with the exception of course being those who profit the most from oil consumption, the use something efficiently.


Not in a scarce resource world.

"In the economics literature it is … well known that increased efficiency in the use of a resource leads over time to greater use of that resource and not less use of it"

We must have a paradigm shift in our thinking about the world.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby lper100km » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 14:49:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'I') dont think rationing will cause the working man a problem honestly.


Oh? I am a general contractor. I have to buy as much gas as I need each day to run my business. Rationing means some days I don't work.


Monte, despite your thousands of posts on the impact of PO, does this represent your epiphany? That it can actually affect you, personally?
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby Hagakure_Leofman » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 18:58:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')e must have a paradigm shift in our thinking about the world.


I agree with Monte.... 100%. If you think that our 'way of life' is compatible with conservation you're nuts. It's the exact opposite. Hence the term (which sadly most people refer to themselves as) consumers. Consumption is the basis of economic growth in the current world of hyper capitalism; its foundation is cheap energy.

I don't know 8O Might just be me, but the word consumption seems almost like an antonym of conservation

From Roget's Thesaurus

Main Entry: Consumption
Part of Speech: noun
Synonyms: decay, depletion, destruction, devouring, drinking, eating, expenditure, phthisis, tuberculosis, use, waste

Main Entry: Conservation
Part of Speech: noun
Synonyms: care, husbandry, managing, preservation, protection, saving, storage

Seem like opposites to me 8O
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby VMarcHart » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 20:32:58

Hi, MonteQuest.

You mentioned you're a contractor and rationing fuel will mean some days you won't work. I can see that. And so will lots of people, certainly myself included.

I think that's what Peak Oil is all about; life after readly abundant and cheap gas. A paradigm shift will have to occur until we find peace with resources and technologies.

I found interesting, being a elite member of this site, you're not providing leadership. Like you, ration will cramp my style. I don't want it. But what do you propose we do?

All the best!
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby Homesteader » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 20:35:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'H')i, MonteQuest.


I found interesting, being a elite member of this site, you're not providing leadership.


One word; Bawhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Hang around awhile, you'll catch on.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby VMarcHart » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 20:42:56

Sorry, I didn't get it.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby Homesteader » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 20:53:40

You will find hanging around well worth the time.

Welcome btw. Prolly could have been a bit more, uh, welcoming a little bit ago.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 21:16:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', ' ')Monte, despite your thousands of posts on the impact of PO, does this represent your epiphany? That it can actually affect you, personally?


Not at all. I have been peak oil aware since 1972 after reading Limits to Growth. For over 35 years I have been saying we can't continue to burn fossil fuels, not because we were running out of them, but because of global climate change, loss of biodiversity, overshoot, etc.

My epiphany came in 1972 when I fully grasped that there are limits.
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Re: Ration Gas

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 03 Jun 2008, 21:21:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', ' ')I found interesting, being a elite member of this site, you're not providing leadership. Like you, ration will cramp my style. I don't want it. But what do you propose we do?


Care to explain that? I have over 12,000 posts mostly about what we should do.
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