[CamelJockey]

we're all gonna die.....who cares who the fuck dies first. "Oh boy im lucky i get to live a few more years" big whoop

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yogiudo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'A')nother thing to consider, is that the poor do vote, and yes, they will vote for leaders that will do *whatever it takes* to keep them alive...so just be ready for this. There no avoiding it, so get used to this idea now. We're all in this together, like it or not.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'O')f course, the elderly and poor are already dying from lack of medicine or inability to pay for it.

[jupiters_release]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')I hope so. My best friend is bi-polar. He has to take 2-3 diferent perscriptions a day to stay functional. One of them is A heavy dose(75mg) of Paxil CR. I have seen a couple of manic outbursts when he is off his meds. It builds up like a pressure cooker then goes off.

[mystiek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'W')ithout lawsuits there would be less costs to the doctors for liability insurance too. I know both sides. Lets take this further. Food is a basic need. So
NO PROFIT IN FOOD EITHER.
No profit in gasoline,,,youhave to have it.
No profit in anything for that matter.
THINK, profit is what drives competition and makes medicine so good here as far as safe etc.

Who is going to work 85 hours a week on call all the time etc. like my wife if there is no money in it. Might as well work at the quick shop etc. and then you can get your health care from some tech.

Profit is not a dirty word. Without it, no one has a job......NO ONE>

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jupiters_release', '
')That's a good one.

[dutchcyclist]

We dont need any kind of crisis to ensure that the old and the poor are the first to die.

[Dukkha]

During the European heatwave in 2003 it was the old who died in disproportionately large numbers (10,000 odd in France over that summer?) but I've no great sympathy for those with self-induced illnesses caused by sloth and greed who are now utterly dependent on medical intervention. If you choose to spend a lifetime sitting on your fat, spotty arse eating rubbish then you can't be too shocked how things pan out; the poor rarely make a choice to be poor but, in the West, the ill are often the authors of their own fate.

[joelcolorado]

There are

15 million diabetics.......bang..they are gone without meds.

It will just be shocking. And disposal of that many bodies will be catastrophic. Very hard to do.

I read the CDC reports on Avian Flu and it said that bodies will be collected without funerals and burned. Can you imagine that happening in THIS country and how ppl will scream>??

We HAVE to go look at the dead corpse dont we? YUK. Nothing is sicker than that to me. Only nation in the world that does that. Whats with that.?

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jupiters_release', 'T')hat's a good one.

[Ludi]

I have a love-hate relationship with the pills. I am helped by some, somewhat. My sister is very hard to treat medically, and suffers horribly from depression (is currently in hospital). But statistically, anti-depressants are slightly better than placebo, which means they barely work better than nothing. Really pathetic, considering how "advanced" our medicine is supposed to be these days. But very little is actually known about the underlying causes of these disorders. I personally suspect many are metabolic in origin, and have to do with inability to properly metabolize certain nutrients, especially in the modern diet (depression is extremely rare in non-civilized peoples). Pharmaceuticals may prove in the long run to do more harm than good, but for people who suffer badly in the present without them, this is a risk we're willing to take. I am working up to trying to go off them again, but it has not worked well in the past for either my sister nor me, we have both tried nothing and alternatives. So I am ambivalent.

PS _ Wellbutrin was horrible for me - while on it, I went through very rapid cycles of deep depression and euphoria, passing from one state to the next in just days or sometimes hours. While in euphoria, I thought it was "worth it" to suffer the bad days to feel so great on the good days; when depressed, I thought it was the end of the world.

[Byron100]

Some very valid points you brought up there, Ludi...it really is a shame how stuck we are in the Dark Ages when it comes to "modern" medicine. Just my like my former faith in the capitalist economic system, my faith in the medical system is all but gone. I honestly think we're going to be better off (in the long run at least) when the American health care system goes into nuclear meltdown (which it will, just wait and see).

We're just better off taking care of our own bodies as we see fit...after all, how did all those generations of people survive before the age of modern medicine? They stayed healthy on their own, that's why. It's simple, easy-to-apply knowledge of sanitation techniques and the use of basic treatments such as antibiotics that increased lifespans to such a dramatic degree in the 20th century, as opposed to all the "advances" that have been made in the past 30 or 40 years or so.

Interesting about your experience with Wellbutrin...I wish I could have experienced at least one of those days of euphoria myself...I just got the ugly end of it...it really did feel like the end of the world, let me tell you...

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') have a love-hate relationship with the pills. I am helped by some, somewhat. My sister is very hard to treat medically, and suffers horribly from depression (is currently in hospital). But statistically, anti-depressants are slightly better than placebo, which means they barely work better than nothing. Really pathetic, considering how "advanced" our medicine is supposed to be these days. But very little is actually known about the underlying causes of these disorders. I personally suspect many are metabolic in origin, and have to do with inability to properly metabolize certain nutrients, especially in the modern diet (depression is extremely rare in non-civilized peoples). Pharmaceuticals may prove in the long run to do more harm than good, but for people who suffer badly in the present without them, this is a risk we're willing to take. I am working up to trying to go off them again, but it has not worked well in the past for either my sister nor me, we have both tried nothing and alternatives. So I am ambivalent.

PS _ Wellbutrin was horrible for me - while on it, I went through very rapid cycles of deep depression and euphoria, passing from one state to the next in just days or sometimes hours. While in euphoria, I thought it was "worth it" to suffer the bad days to feel so great on the good days; when depressed, I thought it was the end of the world.

[joelcolorado]

ENOUGH on the meds etc. This is about how the failing economy will affect our ability to treat patients and their inability to get meds will affect the population as a whole.
joel

[Ludi]

As a "patient," and with other "patients" in my family, it is relevant to me personally, joelcolorado. Hence the personal stories regarding medications which will not be available in the future. Just skip over the parts you aren't interested in.

"Patients" in my family who rely on medications:
Me - antidepressant, antipsychotic, blood pressure med
My sister - antidepressant, antipsychotic, antianxiety meds, thyroid med
My stepmother - meds for circulatory and respiratory problems (multiple heart attacks)
My step-aunt - multiple meds for various disorders related to severe brain injury
My dad - blood pressure med
My husband - allergy meds, pain meds (over the counter)

How will we deal with these people? How will they affect the "population as a whole"? They will probably mostly just die, or wish they could.

[joelcolorado]

We will go back to where we were 30 years ago where the lifespan was like 66 years. People live a long time now due to medicine and healthcare.

Long life has given us all the shortages in medicare, social security, nurses, hospital beds etc. We live too long for what we plan for.

Most ppl do not plan adequately for old age and then are a burden to society. Sad deal that ppl spend all they got on themselves then want the rest of us to take care of them late in life.

My father inlaw drew more retirement than he earned in 45 years working and had 2 million dollars health care thru medicare. NO WONDER we are in trouble. Those numbers will destroy any nation.

[Ludi]

At what point would you decide to "pull the plug" on medical care for folks, joel? Should we wait until we're bankrupt from paying for increasingly expensive insurance, medications, and care, or should we make an arbitrary decision of when to say "Ok, time to die" or "Ok, time to curl into a fetal position from pain and spend the rest of your life nonfunctional."

Sometimes people do not just conveniently die when you want them to. What would you do with a family member who can not care for themselves or function without medical care?

I would like this discussion to be less academic, and more personal, myself.

How would you, joel, decide what to do with ill people who can't care for themselves?

What would you do?

[mystiek]

Some of the blood pressure and obesity issues might resolve when everybody is out working in their gardens unable to watch tv or drive around. I have begun to research into alternative and herbal remedies. you can grow. If you ever want to use alternative meds though BE SURE to discuss beforehand with your physician. Some "natural, herbal" remedies have caused liver damage, etc. and you definitely dont want drug interactions! But, some herbal alternatives have shown promise, maybe not as effective as rx meds but could be better than nothing. Besides, just listen to the commercials on tv about meds they are advertising and the potential side effects-yikes! I agree with you Ludi, its so frightening about what will happen to alot of folks that need specialized medications. As I mentioned in a previous post, as a physician I am dreading the reactions from people when they cant get what they are used to getting anytime they want. Mostly, it will be so upsetting to me if I can't get the care for my patients I'm used to being able to obtain. I dont know if anyone if familiar with the author, Joel Rosenberg. I just finished his new book called Dead Heat. Like he said in the introduction, I just pray to God that the scenario we have been discussing will not come to pass....

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mahabharata', 'A')nd when the end of the Yuga comes, the right hand will deceive the left and the left the right. And men with false reputation of learning will contract Truth and the old will betray the senselessness of the young, and the young will betray the dotage of the old. And cowards will have the reputation of bravery and the brave will be cheerless like cowards.

[joelcolorado]

I would never want to make that decision its just an observation. As health care has gotten better, we are doing heart bypasses on 95 year old persons which cost $500,000. And they have collected social security or pensions for 30 years or more.

Its just a strain on society that has happened. I understand your point and want ppl to live as long as they are productive and happy too.