[threadbear]

Many people think that lack of hierarchy equals lack of leadership. That isn't so. Even in relatively egalitarian structures, there are those who command more respect, whose words carry more weight. They just don't have a title and don't need any kind of coercion to get people to listen to them. If they stop making sense people quit listening. Pretty democratic, if you ask me.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')any people think that lack of hierarchy equals lack of leadership. That isn't so. Even in relatively egalitarian structures, there are those who command more respect, whose words carry more weight. They just don't have a title and don't need any kind of coercion to get people to listen to them. If they stop making sense people quit listening. Pretty democratic, if you ask me.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') never personally advocate "going back" to some previous way of life.

Living in a way to which we are adapted is not "going back" to anything.

Millions of people are currently living in egalitarian bands.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')f they stop making sense people quit listening. Pretty democratic, if you ask me.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', ' ')The best I'm going to get of that sort of "free" life is in my fantasies/dreams.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')"Humans are best adapted to small, egalitarian bands, in the same way that wolves are adapted to packs or bees to hives. Humans flourish in such a social structure, providing us not only with our material needs, but also our universal psychological needs of belonging to such a group, of personal freedom, and of acceptance for ourselves as individuals. Hierarchical society is a social structure we left behind when we became human. It may provide for our material needs, but it fails utterly to provide for any of our psychological needs. So, we invent small, band-like societies–social circles, clubs and the like–to compensate for all the failings of hierarchy. In short, egalitarianism is an essential requirement for healthy human life; hierarchy is an utter rejection of everything that makes us human."

http://anthropik.com/2005/09/thesis-7-h ... band-life/

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'B')ut in this overpopulated world, people need to learn to tolerate differences, not split off and only pledge loyalty to your immediate tribe.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Millions of people are currently living in egalitarian bands.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Ludi, most of the time I'm in solidarity with you but your nostalgia for tribal life is naive. If tribalism was so great, then Iraq and Afghanistan would be a paradise.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Could you list one specific current group of people that you feel lives life according to your ideals?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '[')
True enough, but it just seems like there is some better way out there. I think everyone has some sense of it. It's like a word you know, want to use, it's on the tip of your tongue, but somehow you still can't get at it.

Maybe a future generation will come up with a better idea. Assuming we humans survive our current state of stupidity long enough for there to BE another generation with an idea.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
Why wait for another generation, why not join people who are working toward a different way of life now?

http://www.ishthink.org/

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
I have no "nostalgia for tribal life" - my comments and links are based on anthropolgy.

I have often and repeatedly posted about how tribes fight regularly to re-establish territorial boundaries. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not between tribes but between religious factions (Sunni and Shia).

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '
')I applaud anyone currently invovled in living out/creating their own ideal living situation. I'm trying to be persuasive, but ultimately, I'm not sure how far I'll get with that.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '
')I have to say, tribes fighting with sticks and stones would be preferable to missiles, white phosphorus, nukes, tanks, etc.

It would still be a brutal death, but at least it would char the landscape so badly.

[FreakOil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('charliebrownout', '
')I have to say, tribes fighting with sticks and stones would be preferable to missiles, white phosphorus, nukes, tanks, etc.

It would still be a brutal death, but at least it would char the landscape so badly.

[charliebrownout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreakOil', '
')This reminds me of how Hawaiians tribes used to "fight." One tribe would row to an island, ostensibly to take over the joint. They would walk up onto the beach, upon which the home tribe would come down to the beach to meet the invaders head-on and defend their turf. What ensued was incredibly strange.

The two opposing parties would make faces at each other and scream to intimidate the opposing party. If the anyone flinched, then the opposing party would attack. Usually, they would just make faces at each other and scream for hours until the home team would just give up, invite the invaders to a big party, after which the invaders would row back home. That was it, just a free meal.

The Iroquois, Algonquin and Huron often played lacrosse to resolve disputes. It was a different sport back then. There were no lateral boundaries, and the goals could be miles apart. Hundreds or thousands of players would join in the games, which often lasted for days.

[Newfie]

Ludi,

I don't understand your distinction about civilizations. But no matter. It seems we agree that this is what happens when we put a certain number of people together.

Personally I find that I work best in small companies and that large organizations drive me nuts.

My point was that elites are a creation of the society, no matter the size. While I may criticize them harshly I also understand that if not them, then someone else in the same role.

Perhaps Jung would have called them Archtypes?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')My point was that elites are a creation of the society, no matter the size.

[firestarter]

99% of pre civilization was lived in bands of 50 or so people in relative harmony. This amounts to about two million years. And recent anthropology from the likes of Theresa Kintz and Marshall Sahlins, among others, has essentially obliterated the Hobbesian/ Freudian notion of life under the primitive setup as nasty, brutish and short (viz: it's a bald faced fiction sold to us by history's conquerers).

There are also several aspects of the gatherer-hunter life that civilization would do well to emulate:

*no sexism

* no racism

* no organized violence

* absence of technology

* no plant domestication (agriculture)

* no animal domestication

* no human domestication


The deepest communal bonds know to man were cultivated under this long standing arrangement.

The last 10,000 years under civilization is an awful, violent and deadly aberration.

I'm hoping for some form of a future primitive; if not for me then for those who come after me. I really think it's the planet's only hope.